SPEAKER_01 0:30

Hi, everyone. I'm Dr. Estee Hess. And I'm Dr. Anne Kirsch. And we are back for another wonderful episode of On and Off the Spectrum Podcast. Tonight we have a very, very lovely and special guest. Her name is Ella Dolly. Am I pronouncing your last name correctly? All right. Ella has is an author that has written a very, very practical guide, a workbook entitled Gorilla Mode. And uh we really want to hear from your perspective what was the motivation to write it and how you came about it. And in essence, and tell me if I get this right, Ella, this is a way of helping neurodivergent persons navigate in a neurotypical world.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yes, yes. Um, I would consider my work to be a little bit more intersectional than that.

unknown 1:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Um, so I think it can also be helpful for um, you know, other marginalized groups like trans people, queer people, um, also even just like neurotypical people who are burnt out, you know. So I think that it's intended for like a pretty broad audience.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

But I would say it's a really good because we have a really broad audience. So the fact that a number of different people who identify in different ways can make use of what you have to say today.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

And and as a matter of fact, speaking of of diverse groups who are interested in your book, my understanding, excuse me, is that there is actually a there is a movement amongst college students to embrace your workbook because here you have pretty much men and women who have never left home except now to go on to their college experience really don't know how to navigate in the world. And so they are also picking up your workbook as a way to try to figure out what's their next step. So I thought that was really interesting, also. Very. Can you speak about that?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

That is really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that ties back to a little bit of my inspiration for writing the book. I would say that a lot of what's in the book are things that I learned the long and hard way that I really needed, but I never thought. Because I've known for a long time now that I've never really had role models or and I've never really had other people or other groups mirror back my reality to me. Um, and so I one of the great things I think about my book for younger people, like even high school, you know, like college students, is that um, you know, hopefully they can get some get some tools, helpful tools out of my book, and then not have to learn things, you know, the hard way like I did. Um, and one specific example in my books that I'm really glad we kept in there um is the chapter on like finding your calling. Um, that is something I definitely could have used when I was in college. So I'm really grateful that I was able to incorporate that into my book.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Can you tell me, tell us about that? What do you mean by finding your calling? Because that's an important thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Right. Exactly. So um the backgrounds for like what actually happened in my life is I have been like trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life since I was eight years old. It kind of changed over time. I would say the overarching theme is like humanitarian work and helping people though. So I'm glad that I, in a very roundabout way, you know, got to this place where I'm doing that. Um, but I found my first calling when I was 24, like a little over 10 years ago. And yeah, it was it was obviously pretty unexpected. I was just on the phone with a friend of mine, and I asked him what I could use my life that could combine everything that I like. And I answered my own question of not expecting to. I'm using sound, ultrasonic, and vibrational energy to treat diseases, and so yeah, it's just kind of like evolved from there.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

So I I'd like to hear more about this evolution, particularly um the idea that you have stated in your workbook there there are five pillars um in which you sort of base the strategies that you know you need to go forward to be successful in life. Could you speak to to those different uh the different points of entrance?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Absolutely. So um I was thinking about like fresh examples before this call because I've actually done the exercises in my workbook a few times since I wrote it. So it's kind of surprisingly, but it's so relevant to like my life in the present moment. But so the first is situational awareness, and the examples I had thought about today are like anticipation anticipating pressure and leverage points going into like a higher stake situation. So maybe that's like a negotiation at work or um a time where you have to advocate for yourself for something serious in a medical setting. Um, and then there's psychological positioning. Um, and then my example today is having a strategy for disclosing disabilities at work. And then another example I thought of today is for me specifically having a go-to person in the leasing office in my apartment building if I ever need to advocate for myself or something there.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Well, actually, if you could stop there for a second, because I think that's a really important piece. I I deal a lot with neurodivergent young adults who have a tremendously difficult time launching. And one of the questions that often comes up, and and you and I have talked about this a lot, in in in terms of um, you know, do I tell my boss that I'm on the spectrum? Do I how much do I disclose? How much help do I accept uh in my workplace? Um, because for example, in the state of California we have something called regional center. And if you are a client of regional center, which is the state funding agency, you can get possibly a an advocate to come with you on the job to help making sure that the job is successful. But that means a certain amount of exposure.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

And so, and so how what would you navigate, how would you navigate that for someone who is uh fresh out of uh university, has gotten a first job, and doesn't quite know whether or not to acknowledge their neurodivergent status with their boss, pros, cons, so forth.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Absolutely, yeah. So I think it really depends on a person's like individual situation and workplace. Whenever uh people ask me about this, I always like to be very transparent that for some people it is not safe for them to disclose their displays at work if it's like a really toxic environment, you know. And uh, but sometimes with the right timing and strategy, you can definitely, and that's kind of where my tool, my work comes in. You can definitely disclose that work as long as you're strategic and selective about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

So you can do if and this has happened to clients of mine who identify as queer and they're not, they haven't told anyone in their workplace environment, but someone finds out and they out them to everyone, and that depending on how the strength of the person or how out they are in the rest of their life, that can be devastating.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

So, what would you say in that in the workplace again? If that happens to someone, how to react?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Absolutely. So I think when something more kind of serious or dire like that happens, timing's really important, uh, documentation is really important. So I always tell people that it's really important to always get everything in writing. Yeah, the example I use is I've actually been in situations before where I refuse to get on the phone. Everything has to be an email. Um, so those are great kind of simple ways that people can like protect themselves at work, especially if something unexpected or like like I said, more serious like that happens.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Create a paper trail.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah, paper trail, send me an email. I'm not gonna I can't talk about this on the phone, but send it, send me an email. Yeah, yeah. That's like that's a paper trail. Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

So that's a form of self-advocating. And I'm sorry, we interrupted you before you were.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Oh, you're good, no worries. Um, I think, yeah, timing's also really important. Um, and not something I think that comes with time and age and practice as well, but I think that I've been in situations where I needed to send an email at the right time, not too soon or too late. And um, I talk about this in my book. I think it's actually a big part of my book, is like trusting your gut, following your intuition, which I view as being kind of an example of taking neurodivergent, really just general survival strategies and kind of channeling them into a strategy to be successful and see if it were.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

That's good. I like that. That's very nice and it's very useful. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Can you go further? Because I think there's a lot of practical application to the additional pillars that you mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Oh, absolutely. You got it. So the next one is power mapping, and the example I typically think of for that is knowing who to go to, you know, at work or a doctor's office, or again, back to that leasing office example that I gave. Uh, power mapping is like, especially if you're in a position where you don't have a lot of influence, it's like, who can I go to to get what I need and to accomplish, you know, what I need to accomplish in whatever the setting is. And then we have control of provocation.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Um that I'm very interested in hearing you talk about.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Absolutely. Yeah, it's actually really funny because when I did my workbook the most recently, this is actually previously, but maybe it's like the last two to three weeks. I marked I put this one as my area for growth as I like came up with a bunch of examples. This is so funny. Um, but so what I have written down is advocating for yourself without over-explaining, like losing your sense of self or burning out. And so that I think is a general example of power mapping where it's like you need to like I think disclosing displays is a great example where it's like you only want to say as much as you like actually need to, you want to time it right, stuff like that. Um, and then the last one is strategic patience. And this is kind of one of the ones that's been really important to me, the long game. And uh for that, what I wrote down was knowing when to act and when to pause, and then saving leverage points for when you really need to use them. And ultimately that's what's a leverage point. A leverage point. So the the thing that I always think about for leverage points in my life is when I was earlier on in my career, so in my 20s and my early 30s, I would sometimes encounter work situations, like interpersonal work situations, where I would save it to cash in on it later. And I didn't realize it at the time, but that is sort of what led me to bring guerrilla mode before doing this work, is I could have reacted, I could have had emotional, you know, like an emotional reaction, uh, but I chose to stay grounded and to stay emotionally regulated, um, and to choose, really be intentional about choosing my bottles really wisely, especially at a place like work. And um, you know, I think those are really important aspects of guerrilla mode are emotional regulation and energy conservation as well. So, like, what is worth me spending mental and emotional energy on, and what is not worth like my headspace or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah, that's very important. I think very good along those lines, you do spend some time in the book helping people regulate themselves because I think a lot of times whether they are misunderstanding a situation or indeed they actually get the situation, but it's causing them a lot of agitation and they're being triggered, how to actually regulate your body so that you can, as you say, put it for the long game and and not be so reactive. What are some of the strategies that you've learned how to incorporate uh say on the workplace or on an interpersonal level so that you can teach uh young adults how to organize themselves? You know, because we spend so much time doing this for little children, but when it but it's sort of like there's a there's a a cliff, you know, where where young adults fall off in terms of of getting the knowledge and services that they need. What would be your wisdom to teach people how to organize?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Absolutely. So for the grounding yourself piece, I feel like that looks a little different for people. I think sometimes it takes a little bit of exploration and experimentation to figure out what works for you. But one thing that I talked about in my book that works really well for me is listening to spa genre music. That like pretty immediately, like just I my body detenses. I it's just like so easy to become grounded, and there's a lot of free so genre music on all like Spotify, Pandora, etc. It's really easy to find it. Um, so that's one thing I think it that has really helped me. I think it really depends on the person and their like upbringing and life experiences. But another thing that I like to keep in mind when I'm trying to ground myself and calm myself down if something at work like triggered me or being irritated or whatever, is will I even remember this in three months or six months? And if I do, what how will I feel about it then? In the grand scheme of things, is this something back to the energy um conservation concept? Like, is this something that is really something I want to like hold on to, or am I just gonna forget about it in a week?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

But you know, that's that's a tough one because I think it takes a certain level of maturation to be able to, you know, sit back and kind of go, it's not worth the fight. You know, in three months' time or six months' time, I'll forget about it. But at the moment, when somebody does something or an action triggers, um, I'm just thinking of some of the young people who I saw just today, and they come in so agitated, so tied up, and it's very difficult to be able to say, Well, let's organize, let's calm, whether it's music or or any other kind of form of a mantra to to help calm. But to be able to say, is this really going to be something that is going to irritate you to this level in you know, three to six months? How do you share this wisdom in the moment so somebody doesn't have to be so upset uh for any length of time, really?

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah, absolutely. So another thing that came to mind, and this is a gift that I got from one of my recent therapists. Sadly, we don't work together anymore because they got long COVID and had to reduce their caseload. But one thing they are also autistic, and one thing they taught me is like micro boundaries. And I really like that for neurodivergent and disabled people, especially because and it takes practice. You know, I'm still working on it because I just, you know, she they just told me this like I don't know, last year. Um, but I feel like micro boundaries are really useful in a time at work or in general where something irritates you or someone says something to you and it rubs you the wrong way. Um, because you, you know, people have every right to say, I need a moment. Um, I need to step away for a moment. And I've had times at work where I just I left my desk, you know, for five minutes, went outside or something, and then came back. And that's another thing too, on that note, is just like going outside, especially like if you're in a room with no windows, like a lab like I was. Um, I think that just being outside, there's something about being outside even just for like five minutes that can help like reset you a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I think that's a wonderful, wonderful suggestion because it's true. I know that I've done that when I'm not working with a client. I will try to go outside because one of the things that we both do is we talk with our clients about how to breathe. Right. And you can breathe a lot better when you're outside in the actual air than if you're in a closed office, especially if there's no windows. Right. So breathing exercises I find with clients do what you're talking about. So that's that's something that I think is very important about what you're saying. And the other thing is that when you talk about will this matter in six months, a lot of people say to themselves, I don't know why I'm even bothering, it won't matter. You know, high school kids especially, it won't matter in five years, I won't, I don't need to know math, it won't matter. What I tend to say is let's not think about five years. Let's think about right now and how you feel right in this moment, and let's talk about that or tell me about that, and that's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's terrific. Yeah, I'm I'm wondering though, because you know, there is not only is there problems in the neurodivergent world in terms of being able to successfully launch in terms of career path, but on an interpersonal level, to be able to couple with a partner and to be able to use some of the skills that your workbook uh professes. And I'm just kind of wondering have you been able to take this you know the the workplace and been able to expand it into a person's domestic experience?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Yeah, that's a great question. So I feel like I, to be honest, I have more experience with in with it in with institutions, so like whether that's a medical setting or a workplace. That being said, though, I did make sure to include uh there's one chapter in the book about Rilla Moding your personal life, and that's when I talk about the squad music, actually, which is great. I'm glad we left that in there. Um, but uh I really do think it's very applicable to interpersonal relationships and people's personal lives as well, because um hypothetically, let's just say um someone has an argument with their partner, um it's it's really useful for the like the couple to be able to emotionally regulate themselves or know like what their triggers are, know when they need a moment, like when they are okay with like getting feedback or they just need support and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Right, I agree. So knowing when you can say, you know, being trusting your partner well enough to know that you can s ask for some space, being able to say, like you're like you're suggesting, being able to say, you know, I th I don't want to get into an argument right now with you, so I'm gonna go in the other room and and calm down, breathe, listen to spa music is a great one. Um one of my pip personal favorites, because I love that. And then we can come back to it because what I think a lot of people realize is that, and it's surprising, is that when they come back together, they they don't want to argue. Yeah. They they've calmed themselves down, they've emotionally regulated themselves, not as a couple, but as individuals, which is what you're talking about so well.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yeah. But I I am before we we we We can't finish your your interview without really looking to expand how your workbook has gone beyond the neurodivergent population as mentioned and into now college dorms. And how there are a lot of uh young people who are probably leaving home for the first time really don't know how to navigate because they've relied on parents to show them, you know, the way left or right or in between. And I think that your your workbook is gaining a lot of traction because it's a how-to for this very large and almost untapped population. I wonder if you could speak to that.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

How did you find out about that?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

And and absolutely. Yeah, so I love, I actually love how we found out about this. So a friend of mine here in Portland, Shay Noble, amazing. Definitely look her up, trauma-informed HR. Um, so she works in HR, and her side hustle is trauma-informed HR consulting. And uh, so she is the one I hired to final edit and do the late the beautiful layout of my book. And what was amazing about that is she has two teenage sons, and her older teenage son has a partner. Um, so what was great about that was we got feedback from them throughout the process about what it would look like in a teenager's eyes. And pretty early on, I want to say this was like earlier this year, I asked you, I said, correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't you say that my book is technically 14 and up? And she adamantly agreed with me.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Oh, it's interesting. That is fascinating. So really and truly that as you know, I'm thinking of a 14-year-old, just more or less as as young people are beginning to organize as you know and make movement towards independence, towards separation from their family of origin. This is when you think your book would come, your workbook would really come into play to help offer guidance.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Absolutely. And um obviously people I feel like people from different backgrounds take, and I say this in my book, take what works for them, and they're like, maybe this doesn't apply to me. And obviously, someone who's that young would probably not get something out of like every single exercise in the book, but I feel like they would still be able to get a lot out of certain aspects, especially like the five pillars and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Is it uh do you I don't know if you've had this chance to even get it exposed? Do you see persons in different cultures relating to your book in one fashion or another?

SPEAKER_00 24:47

So I haven't explored it that much yet. However, I do think my work has the potential to scale internationally just because it's such a broad, like high systems level kind of framework. Yeah. Um, and so I think that's actually one of my favorite parts about my work, to be honest, is that it's apolitical, it transcends binaries in almost every construct that there is. And I just really like that it's apolitical, but still has the potential to be impactful and help people.

unknown 25:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Well, I I think that's I think that's the takeaway that it is here as a it's a an active instruction to help people move forward with their lives. And I think you offer this valuable, valuable tool. So I I want to just tell you thank you. It's been such an informative pleasure to have you be our guest uh on tonight's show. Um and uh I will just mention that if people enjoyed tonight's episode, we want to encourage them to certainly write in any thoughts or questions, and Ella will be sure to pass these forward uh to you for the future. And uh at the same time, I want to also uh mention that if you think that you might be a good guest on our podcast, not to hesitate to reach out. Again, this is I'm Dr. Estee Hess. And I'm Dr. Ann Kirsch. And this is On and Off the Spectrum Podcast. If you liked what you saw tonight, please do follow us and subscribe. We are on YouTube and all a variety of social media, including Instagram and Spotify music. And really, Ella, it's such a pleasure. You are a beautiful lady with a wonderful message to share. Thank you for coming on the program tonight.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Awesome. Thank you so much for having you guys. This has been such a great conversation. I really love it.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

That's what we're looking for. Okay, it's a pleasure. Take care. Have a good evening. Bye.

unknown 26:50

Bye bye.