SPEAKER_00 0:35

Good evening, everyone. This is Dr. ST Hess.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

And I am Dr. Anne Kirsch.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

And tonight we're doing something really fun. We are, of course, part of the podcast On and Off the Spectrum. And normally Ann and I are on the same side of the camera, and we are going ahead and interviewing, either we're having a professional discussion ourselves, or we are interviewing some wonderful, wonderful people from really around the world who are educating ourselves, certainly our viewership. But tonight we thought we'd have some fun. And uh, you know, I think we've been now go doing this about three months, and I thought our viewers would want to know a little bit more about us. So I'm gonna uh I'm gonna tonight I'm gonna let you be my guest, Anne. And we're just gonna ask a little bit about yourself because I know you're a wonderful, wonderful psychotherapist. And I thought I would ask you some, you know, basic some professional questions, and then maybe ask a little bit of uh some quick, short personal questions if that's okay with you, and just have some fun tonight.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Absolutely, I think it's a great idea because I know that people who have watched our podcast have said asked questions like um, well, you'll find out everyone what the questions were because we wrote them down, and so we're gonna have some fun. I'm looking forward to it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Well, the first question was just basically how you chose your profession. Have you always wanted to uh be a psychologist?

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Well, you know, that's the question I probably get asked the most often. And yes, I've always wanted to going back probably to elementary school, when I took a book, probably fifth or sixth grade, took a book off my parents' bookcase, and uh much to my surprise, I the book I took off was written by my uncle, my mother's brother, who at that point I did not know other than as my uncle. And he lived on the East Coast, and I start looked at the book, and the book was about forensic psychology. And I remember asking my mother, what does that mean? And and why didn't you tell me that he was a psychologist? So she began to explain to me what that was, and I remember when he came out to visit, he and his wife, my aunt, um, and I remember just asking him a million questions. It turns out he was a forensic psychologist, um, worked with the courts, worked with um people who uh got into trouble, and um but he also was a lay analyst. And what that means is that he worked with all um all manner of children and young adults was his preference, children, young adults, and he would analyze them. He had studied that and learned about that, and it was like something clicked in my mind. I couldn't get enough of the well, what does that mean? And and what do you do and how do you do it? And he I remember him laughing because on one trip when I was now a teenager, probably 14, um, him saying, Okay, am I going to be quizzed today? Um, and it's much like what we're doing now, am I gonna be quiz? And I said, I have so many questions. And he and my aunt took me out for lunch, and um he said, Okay, go ahead and ask. And I, and he, as it turns out, he traveled all over the world, and he knew a great many very interesting people, and he answered so many questions as the years went on, and that was really when I started to think, you know, I'm always interested in what makes people tick. I'm always interested. And the unusual part to me was as I got older into high school, um, I realized that all of my friends would ask me about their issues, their problems. And I start, and I remember thinking, ah, this is what psychology is. And then I took psychology courses and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I love it. I love it. And I love the fact that you had a family member who was your mentor and someone who was willing to take an eager child's questions and really validate them, made you feel heard, and that's exactly what you do in your profession on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

That's exactly right. Make them feel heard, and every once in a while I will have a patient who be decides that they're gonna become a therapist, and then I become a mentor to that person, and it's really amazing. I love that. I love knowing that I've impacted someone in that way. It's always I've always asked a patient of mine, what so is it the therapy? What was it that made you think of it? And and always it's been someone like me who has people have gone to them, people have asked them questions, and they've started to think about it, and then in therapy, it started to form.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Beautiful, beautiful. Yes. Well, actually, along that line, was there a moment in your work where you went like, aha, this this is this is what I meant to be, and this is what I meant to do?

SPEAKER_02 6:34

That's an interesting question. Um you see, everyone, we did not go over all of this. So I think I think when I was in college in my undergraduate years, and I when I came home for part of the summer, and I went as I often did uh ever since high school, a friend of the family, they ran a private school. And I would work there in on vacations, and I would work in the summer when I had time. And I remember sitting down with a woman who was truly my mentor, if I ever had one, along with my uncle. But and she just took me in and she taught me everything that she could teach me. And what her name was Phyllis, and what Phyllis was doing, and I didn't realize it at the time, but what she was doing was she was see she worked with children, that school was for young children, early elementary, and up until about fifth grade, and younger children, um preschool age children. And what I realized was that she saw in me something that I had not yet seen. She saw in me this eagerness to ask questions. I was always very good with children and young children. Um I work a lot with pre- and perinatal psychology, which is from before birth till after birth and working with parents. And when she started to ask me to come in and actually be a part of her staff one summer, um, I asked her why she why did she think that I could do that? And she looked at me, she called me Annie, and she said, Annie, I've been preparing you for this career our whole lives. Oh, that's so special. That's it was remarkable because I didn't know that she saw that in me, but I did know that I saw in myself this desire to really help children, young children, older children. I really wanted to help them in their childhoods and help them figure out, you know, not every family is a great family to come from.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

But but I wanted to be able to help them get through whatever they needed to get through.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

That's wonderful. That's wonderful. It sounds to me that again, along the way, you had some s such important mentors, you know, and who believed in you, saw the brilliance developing and really could nurture that, which is just so amazing. Because again, this is something that we validate and do again with our own patients. Right. But I but I'm curious because there's always a path, right, in terms of of becoming uh a clinician. Um how were you as a student?

SPEAKER_02 9:59

In um in what years? I love to go to school. I was one of those kids who just if you gave me a choice of being home on a day off or being at school, I would pick going to school. I loved I love seeing my friends. I loved um when I was very young, we would play school and I would always want to be the teacher. And I loved being in school, and I was the kid who wanted to sit in the front row. But the teacher assigned seats, they were those big seats where the top came up and down with books in them. And I love I just loved it. I loved learning, I loved going to school. It just was part of, I guess, an extension of talking with my uncle. I loved when the teacher would ask questions, my hand would always shoot up. Um, I think sometimes too much, probably asked a lot of questions. And as we all know, you know, every teacher is does not love have having to answer a lot of questions. So as I got older, I realized that and I calmed that down. But I just love learning, and it didn't matter about what.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

All right, so so let's talk about learning because I know this is something you and I have talked about in terms of I think a deficit in our professional training. All right. What is something that you wish someone would have told you early on in your career as a clinician, as a psychotherapist?

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Well, that's not hard to answer because I have told this to um to the students that I've taught in uh doctoral programs, especially masters and doctoral programs. I wish someone had told me and taught me about how to do the the side of working with pay how do you pay bills? How do you take how do you set up your office? How do you um how do you know how to not just not just write a check, but how when a person pays you, do they pay you monthly, do they pay you weekly, um all of the issues that have to do with learning about uh the business side. That in I've talked to many of our colleagues along the way. I don't know about you, but in my experience, nobody's taught that in grad school.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Sorely needed. I also, like yourself, have interns who work with me. And uh, for example, if someone is doesn't show up and we have that in their uh contract, first of how to write a contract, right, between a patient and a clinician, uh, it'll come up, for example, that you charge for uh missed shows. And uh why? Because your time has value, and that is not discussed.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

So And that is so important because knowing that you have, as a clinician, that you have value, and knowing that the value gets translated into what you're paid is something that not only are we not taught, but often people feel guilty for accepting money for something that they're doing as a job. And you have to learn that it you're giving somebody something that's worth tremendous value, and that in exchange for that value, they a person will pay you. Now, people who who uh we have um who come into, they call, they make an appointment, they come into our offices, they're not so surprised about how about paying. They understand that that's the rule of the game, but I can't tell you how many people I've worked with um and mentored and have said, what do you think the hardest thing will be for you to do? What what haven't you been taught? And almost everyone will say, I'm afraid to ask to be paid. At the end of a session, what do you say? How do I say it? Do I have it in do I have it in a letter? Do I have it, you know, how do I go about it?

SPEAKER_00 15:07

What's my value for the time and the wisdom that I've just shared? Exactly. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

And what do you do when someone says, I don't, I don't, I don't think I should pay today because we didn't, you said that the session was 45 minutes, and we didn't do 45 minutes, we did we did 42 minutes. And and it's really like you're smiling, but it really is an interesting thing because sometimes in a session there's some chit-chat that goes on in the beginning. You know, how have you been? How's your how how is your family? All that, but that's all part of the session, right? And it doesn't happen often. But if you are a new clinician and you aren't sure when a person isn't offering you their their check or their credit card or however it's going to be done, and you have to say, um, you know, I'm I'm sorry, I forgot to ask you, do you want to play by paying by credit card or by and it's it's a complicated thing, money. In every business, it's complicated. And in our business, because we there's so many things about it that are complicated, and maybe you'll get to that.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Well, we're well, you know, this is this is uh only the beginning of a conversation between us and and a chance for our viewers to get to know us. But one of the reasons that I think you and I have developed as strong a friendship as we have is because we have a lot in common, and particularly our populations, because we don't just work with children, we work with whole families. I like to say I've yet to meet a child who lives alone.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

And uh what would you want uh parents to better understand about themselves in regards to their role uh in parenting their children, in being the head of their households? Um, because I know that half the time that we, if not, if not more, that we are supporting our kiddos, we are really supporting the you know the the the anchor, which in in most cases are the are the parents.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yes. And it's this is a very important question. Um I think that the thing that I would and I have spoken to parents about is the idea that children don't grow up alone. They grow up in a family, good or bad, but they grow up in a family, sometimes other children, but the parents are the people who set the tone for how that family is going to run. Just like in an office, there's an office head, there are people that have different jobs, and and it goes from there. I always say to parents that um I explain it like this. I say there are there's if there's one child, I say there's a triangle, and that one child triangle at the bottom is your is your child, and you at the top, the two of you at the top, you're in charge of of that one child, and they expect you to know that you are the parenting body, the the person who is uh the most important in the family when it comes when it comes to thinking about it that way. There are many children, I would venture to say, probably most children at some time or another test that they want, they want to be the ones in charge, they want to you know push you around, they want to say, no, I don't want to go to bed now, no, I I'm not hungry, I don't want to eat now, I don't like what you made, whatever it is. What I tell parents is that that kind of testing is it's perfect. Children need to go through that stage, even though it can drive you as a parent crazy.

unknown 19:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

They need to go through the stage because they need to know who's in charge. Absolutely. And they learn when you you don't need to yell. There's a lot of yelling in families that go on, and it doesn't have to be. Once in a while, yeah, of course, I'm a parent, you're a parent. But when you say to a child, I know you, you know, you changed your mind. You didn't want, you changed your mind. You said you wanted spaghetti for dinner, but somewhere along the way, it sounds like you changed your mind. Is that what happened? Yes, and I don't like your spaghetti, and I never liked it, and they go off on a riff. And then you have to be able to think fast on your feet, which is why working with parents is so important.

unknown 20:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

You have to be able to say as a parent to your child or your children, you know, I understand. Today at lunch, I brought or I decided I was going to go out to lunch, and I started eating the salad, and I realized I didn't want the salad. I should have gotten the sandwich, but I paid money and I have to eat it, or I don't have to eat it, I can bring it home. You chose spaghetti, and I'm happy tomorrow to make for you whatever you want for dinner. I'm gonna ask you in the morning and you're gonna you're gonna try and remember. But for now, we're stuck with spaghetti. And that's what we're all eating. We're eating spaghetti. So I think what we can do is we can have, let's have an interesting conversation while we're eating our spaghetti. I know what we can do. Let's tell a story about the best thing that happened to us and the worst thing that happened to us.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

So, what what I'm hearing is telling parents to approach compassionately, but but don't be afraid to be in charge. Exactly. Right? Because children need that sense of security that somebody else is is manning the helm, right? It's a little scary for kids when they think, Well, there's really nobody in charge, so I guess it's me. And children are very scary. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

It's very scary. It parents tr often will try, and it's understandable I did it too. Parents will understandably try to give children what they want to make them happy because they are actually afraid of their child being unhappy and yelling at them. And if there's a younger child causing causing a display of anger that then the younger child was going to pick up on right away. But the reality is that if you don't stick with what you said you were going to do, a child gets the message that their behavior can change what mom and dad have said, is the rule, is what we decided on as a family, it's all of that. But I think that children having having a tantrum and knowing that they are still loved, they are still wanted, they are still needed, but we're eating what we're eating, I still love you. I will always love you because doesn't matter whether you like the spaghetti or not.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

That's right. So compassion, love, and I'm in charge. I love it. That's right. I love that. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Well, you have to have somebody in charge.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

If they're if you're someone's not in charge, that child will take charge as quickly as they can, and when they take charge, they do not know what they're doing. And then you have chaos. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Well, I want to make sure that we end this interview with to not have any kind of chaos. In fact, I want to do a little bit of just sort of fun, quick answers with you. Sure. Okay. So um what's your what's your preference? Coffee or tea?

SPEAKER_02 24:35

These days, coffee.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Okay. Okay. How do you take it?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

I like um a little little bit of sugar and a little bit of milk.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

All right. Uh oh, favorite place to decompress.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Oh boy. Um, I like the beach. I'm so lucky to live in a place where it's so easy to get to the water, and that when I have time, and I don't have a lot of time, but when I have time, I like to go to the beach. I like to just walk, walk along the sand, walk on just walk. Just walk. Well, I guess walking and the beach.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

All right, last last question. What is the most underrated quality in a person?

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Oh, the most underrated quality. I think probably people underrate a person's ability. Now let me rephrase that. I think a person's kindness, I think a person's ability to be kind and thoughtful and caring towards one another. Well, you know, in in Los Angeles, we've had a number of different kinds of things have gone on in this city that have not been good. There's been fires, there's been, you know, all kinds of things. And what it's brought out in the people who live here has almost universally been a person's caring for one another, love for one another. Well, when we had an earthquake here in '92 or '94, um people were so kind. I remember thinking I should stop at a market before I need things and it's going to be too crowded. Well, it was early, early in the morning, and it was already too crowded. And I must have had a look on my face, like, oh no, I need to get something. And a man standing um in line in front of me turned around, he was looking to see how long the line was, and he said to me, Is there something you look really nervous and anxious about getting something? What is there something you need to get for your kids, or is there something you need because you can go in front of me?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And and you know, most days people don't act that way. And in fact, I was just turned anxious because we had just had this big earthquake. I did not need to get it any one particular thing. But that comment of this very nice man turned into a conversation. The whole line was very long. We talked the whole time. We got to know one another, what we did for a living, all of the things. It was a gift.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

How wonderful, how wonderful kindness and and what a wonder, wonderful way to end this really lovely little intimate kind of way for our viewers to get to know uh each of each other. Uh in a little bit of time, I know Anne, you're going to interview me, so I'll be under the hot seat a little bit. Yes. But I want to thank you tonight for your openness, uh, your kindness, oh, certainly to myself, and I know to to all the people that you continue to help on a on a daily basis. It's always a pleasure. And I I will share with you that I am glad that you are my friend.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Oh, I feel exactly the same way. Absolutely. I know.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

All right.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

And I am Dr. Ann Kirsch.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

And this is On and Off the Spectrum Podcast. Again, if you enjoyed what you saw tonight, please follow us, subscribe. We're on a variety of social media platforms, including YouTube and uh Spotify Music, Instagram. But if you think that you would like to also be on our program and be one of our guests, please reach out because we are looking for people who would like to educate our viewership. And as we are doing this evening, we to get to know you a little bit better. So, again, I wish you all a very safe and wonderful evening. And um, again, Anne, I send you kisses.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Thank you so much. This was really fun. I enjoyed it. Thank you. See you soon. Please, bye-bye. Bye bye.