SPEAKER_01 0:30

Hi everybody, I'm Dr. Estee Hess, and I'm Dr. Ann Kirsch. And we are back this evening for another episode of On and Off the Spectrum Podcast. We have, I think, a very, I'm gonna say a timely and an appropriate guest for these times. Meaning this is Marianne Hughes, and Marianne has been introduced to us as a certified divorce coach for the neurodivergent population. And I say timely because Marianne, you will please correct me if I have the statistics off. But um on my end, as a as a person who deals a lot with the pediatric division of children with special needs, uh every 33rd child born in the US today uh will be diagnosed on the spectrum before the age of eight, certainly in the United States. And so if you imagine these people coming of age and certainly wanting to partner, there is an unfortunate statistic that 80% of individuals who are neurodivergent, unfortunately, their partnerships will end in uh disillusionment and divorce. And so um without further ado, Marianne, we uh welcome you and what an interesting and um thoughtful and practical kind of work in in today's world.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yes, please get started by telling us how did you get into this particular field?

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yeah, first thank you so much for having me on your show. It's such an honor and pleasure to be speaking with you both and share information about what I do and how to help families that are going through transitions. And so, yeah, I got into this because I myself am the mother of two children on the autism spectrum, now young adults. And several years ago, I found myself facing divorce after a marriage of over 20 years. So it wasn't something I expected or planned for by any means to go through divorce, but my journey um led me to what I do now. So I learned so much through my process, advocating for my kids, trying to figure out how to figure out what they needed as part of the divorce, how to get through it, taking the special needs into account, which is a little bit different than say a typical divorce when you're um um neurotypical uh children. And so, yeah, I've heard statistics before pretty high numbers as well. Some people debate those numbers, but the reality is it affects a lot of families, whatever the number may be. And so um it does cause a lot of stress on the parents to go through the process. Granted, uh, it's never because of the kids, but there's a lot of stresses in raising a child with special needs. And sometimes the marriage foundation isn't strong enough, or things happen throughout the marriage that maybe cause the situation for divorce to happen. So I'm not here to advocate for divorce. It happens a lot with all kinds of families, but but my goal is to help people get through it in a uh more positive way, educated way, and a perspective that puts the kids first and treats it as like a project plan, kind of a business proposition, as opposed to making decisions from emotion.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

That's a that's wonderful. All of that. Keep going. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, yeah. And so for me, it took me a couple of years to try to figure out how to get through the process, research what I need to do, to try to find experts that understood the complexities involved of raising a child with special needs, not just the raising, but also in the divorce aspect. And my children were becoming adults around that time. So not only was I dealing with divorce, but also transition planning and planning for the future. And I think that's what uh keeps us up at night as parents of children with complex needs, is what's gonna happen to our children in the future. So I had to do all this planning all at once when really I wasn't planning on doing that, right? I know for transition planning, we sometimes we put that off. You know, we want to think our kids are young and we have plenty of time for that. But this kind of brings it to the forefront that we have to make these decisions or start thinking about those things now. And so, yeah, so we have to figure out, you know, the disability, get both parents on board. Sometimes it is a difference in opinion or perspective about the child and their level of ability, and that causes uh sometimes more conflict in divorce as opposed to maybe putting the child first and kind of seeing what they need and coming to agreement that way. Sometimes people may get uh attorneys who maybe want to advocate for their client, but then they're kind of at odds with each other. So we want to do things in a way where the hopefully the parents can make decisions that are in everyone's best interest and then just go from there because they're gonna have to co-parent for a long time or forever, right? Um some sometimes in a typical divorce, you're the child turns 18 and you may not have to deal with the other parent. In our case with children with ongoing needs, we have to have that relationship or hopefully do with the other parent because we're they're gonna continue, hopefully, to be involved in the child's life and we're gonna need that support, whether it's emotional, caregiving, financial, or otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

So it's interesting, Marianne, because I actually imagined it differently when I heard that you were a certified divorce coach for the neurotypical uh neurodivergent rather community. I imagined that this was figuring out if, for example, if one or both partners are on the spectrum, how to help them navigate the practicalities of divorce. But what I'm also hearing is you've exp and and perhaps you that's you know, it is something you do, but I've also hear how you're helping the parents deal with their children who will have neurodivergent issues and to help them s continue to stay connected in a parenting fashion, but with the idea that okay, they're divorced, but they are still going to have to deal with the fact that their children have these disabilities that are you know potentially long-lasting, and how to work through that so that they can stay together in that context as a team.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Right, exactly. So most of my work is focused on the parents advocating and supporting their child um and doing what's best for them as part of the process. But I do I do work also with um with couples when one of the parents may be neurodivergent themselves. And sometimes they may not, uh it may not be a parent initially, but uh with a genetic component uh of autism and neurodiversity, a lot of times at least one of the parents may be as well. So uh depending on which parent I'm working with, kind of um you know influences how I approach a situation. But definitely the goal, no matter whether the parent is neurodivergent or not, my focus is to help them figure out what to do, how to do it in a way that respects everybody involved. So in addition to being a divorce coach, so I'm a certified special needs divorce coach, but I've also been trained as a mediator and as a co-parenting specialist and parenting coordinator so that I can look at things from different perspectives, not just helping one parent. So sometimes as a coach, that's my role is to help the one parent kind of figure out what to do and get them in a in a good place to make good decisions and help them find the information they need and resources, but I can also be a neutral to help both parents together try to figure out what to do and how to go forward.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

That's that's amazing. That's amazing. I really appreciate that level of sensitivity, and I'm struck actually, because um it sounds like sometimes you might have to help a parent stay invested. You know?

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Right. Yeah, yeah. So um yeah, sometimes we've got parents who are both invested in their own way, uh, and sometimes one and sometimes in different ways. And sometimes one parent may feel like they're the ones um carrying the load of the the child care and and planning for the future, and the other parent may not be on board, say with a disability and not see the need to have ongoing child support and care and planning. And so there's all things involved uh when you have a new diverse child um from when they're little to when they become adults, and this uh divorce um brings it all kind of together, and we have to be accepting of the disability. For one, I see that as an issue among some parents that they're on different pages on that, and part of it is a grief cycle, and part of it um is financially river. So there's different reasons for that in a in a divorce situation. Um, but yeah, the goal is to share things in a neutral way so that both parents, no matter what their familiar reference might be, can see the benefit of what we need to do for that for that child to get through this process, um, come to an end of the divorce, and then hopefully have a positive co-parenting relationship. Sadly, that's not always the case, but that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

It's such a wonderful thing that you're doing, and it reminds me of a family I worked with quite a while ago now, um, that had a daughter that was on the spectrum, and um the parents got divorced. There were two other children in the family. Um the father, uh it was an unusual situation in my experience that the father was willing to pay support, offer whatever amount of money was necessary for for therapy, for all kinds of outside things that would help his daughter, but he did not want to be a part of her life because he did not agree with the diagnosis. And I know that this the parents went to more than one, many more than one expert about this diagnosis, and this sunny little girl who was about five, four or five when I met them, um, he just backed away from because he couldn't tolerate this diagnosis. And um so I was wondering what what happens when you because you're advocating for the children as much or if not more than than the parents. Um what do you do in a situation like that where a parent steps back from being an everyday, every other day presence? I mean, this dad took the other children to his house, but would not take the little girl.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Yeah, that's that that's sad, and sadly those kind of situations do happen. So um sometimes, as we were talking earlier, it's hard for a parent to accept uh diagnosis, accept that a child has a disability or is not what they envisioned for their child when they were planning on having kids. And so sometimes they have they need to kind of process that. Sometimes it helps to have information for uh professionals like yourselves in the mental health space to help them understand, to help them, I guess, from the for the for them to deal with their own um you know issues and concerns and try to work through that, but also for the child to have therapists and for the child's therapists and and professionals support that child to share information with both parents about this is the reality that we're dealing with. This is what the child needs to be successful. Um, you know, there's hope, hope, you know, for the child. We always want to hope for the best, right? Um, and this is these these are the kind of you know therapies and actions and and things that will help the child to develop to the best of their ability. But this is why um this child is you know has his diagnosis. And and granted, there's it takes time to accept that, especially I've seen it harder for dads to come to acceptance of that because the mom maybe is more involved with the school and the therapies and the day-to-day caregiving. And maybe the dad, you know, only sees a certain side sometimes of the child, especially if the child is able to mask, or um, you know, they have their own ideas about you know how the relationship with parent and child should be. And so um, yeah, that takes time to get, like I said, through the grief cycle to eventually get to the point of acceptance. Because first you've got the denial and the anger and all those, all those emotions and and phases that go as part of that. Um and so, yeah, we want to kind of share information once again, not to focus on the disability itself, but say this is your child, and this is what they need. This is the kind of support they need from each parent. So you can have those conversations without focusing on the word autism or neurodiversity or whatever it is. This is you know, this is Jane, and this is what Jane needs um at this home, and this is what Jane needs at this other home, and how to help her go between homes. That's kind of something I've been involved in is how do we share information with children so that they are able to make those transitions, right? That's part of me, what I do.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

With with that in mind, Marianne, do you assist parents on how to tell their children up front that mom and dad, or mom and mom, or dad and dad, however the configuration is, um, are no longer going to be married, but we are still going to be your parents?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Right. So uh I'm not a mental health professional, so I so my my the way I approach it, you know, it might be different the way um you approach it, but when like when my kids were getting divorced, and granted they were, you know, uh not not young, but there were different levels, and one was not very verbal and didn't have the um ability to have a session. So I looked for people um like yourselves to have to find support, to figure out how do I tell my children, how do I share information, how do I make sure they're gonna be okay. And I gotta tell you, I had a hard time finding somebody who would be able to work with my older son who had more complex sneeze. And so what I ended up doing is I figured uh I went to somebody and they said, Well, what do you do when there's something new that you have to explain to your kids and to help them through the something different? So I create a social story, and that's what I did is I create a social story for my children about what's happening to our family. That's what I called it, and so I broke down what was happening.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Carol Gray, who is this wonderful, wonderful clinician who actually herself was a child of a father uh on the spectrum, and uh she came up with short stories that parents or clinicians can share with their kids and explain in direct, simplistic language what exactly is gonna happen, and the last page always says, and it's going to be okay. Right. So it's a very reassuring kind of presentation. I'm I'm sorry, I just wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah, no, I appreciate you explaining that because yes, for me, I I kind of use the term, yeah, I use the term loosely, so maybe not exactly Carol Gray stall, but that's a term I use when I create, like when we were we used to go on like vacation, and we still do to this day. I would explain to them what to expect our first time, for instance, flying, what to expect at the airport, what the process is like so they can know and have less anxiety and be prepared for what was going to happen as part of that uh adventure, if you want to call it that. And so I took the same concept and created my divorce social story, as I called it. Um all the you know, credit to Carol Gray for what she's created, but this was my you know my own my own creation. And so you know, hopefully I can use that terminology. But um, yeah, trying to do it in a positive light, you know, pictures of you know the family together. This is, you know, mom and dad, you know, still, you know, we you know, you know, we love our children, but now uh things are gonna be different, we're gonna be living in different homes and what they can expect from that, right? To reassure that they're both still loved by both parents, that's very important because we don't want those, um, you know, them to you know think these are their fault or they're not loved or whatever. Like you said before, some sometimes parents you know are maybe not as involved. And so we want to hopefully encourage that by having everybody as part of this process. I think, and if for some, for instance, uh, I created this when um my children go to their dad's new place for the first time. So I was able to get pictures from him as to what uh like the room would look like and what they could prepare for and mentally um you know kind of envision. Uh and so we even had the teachers at school read the the what I created for them so they could um you know get get used to that because it was something different for them because they had never been away from mom nor had I been away from them, right? Overnight we've been on vacation, but we're always always together. So this is the first time they'd be away from mom was just dad. And that was I had to explain all those different steps and so that they would be okay. And of course, you know, it got easier over time, but that but that whole social story and explaining it in a in a um positive, nurturing fashion, I think really helped.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah. There's no doubt in my mind that it helps. I remember learning early on in my career to not just talk about it the way you're describing, which is really music to my ears. It's not easy for clinicians to find people outside of what we do who understand what you're saying so well. So it works back and forth. But I used to do uh books, and I would say to the say to whichever parent was coming in with their child, I would say, let's let's make a book about the story of the divorce, going to Disneyland, whatever the new experience was. And parents tend to go for, well, I can get a book that's abound here and there. I say, no, this is staple. Staple the book of pieces of paper in your child's words, your words, let them draw on it, put it on the coffee table. So it's always there. Take pictures, put it in. And what's remarkable to me was that I then found other clinicians who were doing that very same thing, but no one taught me. So when I started to teach graduate students who were going to be working with families, which they're not many of us, but I told them about that because that works for neurotypical, neurodivergent. It helped to help a child of any age prepare for the next movement the family's gonna take has a huge positive effect on the children. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Yeah, wonderful. So glad to hear that you that you did that. So yeah, it's kind of like a storybook, and it's at their own level, right? Like you said, there's maybe some that are just you know, maybe symbols and maybe a few words, and some maybe who can read or can understand more, then you can have you know longer sentences and paragraphs and make it a true book. So yeah, definitely tailor it.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

And pictures, I was a pictures of I remember one very sweet picture of a merry-go-round because they were going to a fair, and this child was young and wanted to go on the merry-go-round, but was afraid of it going too fast. And so the mom very wisely got pictures, got this was back in the VCR days, found a movie with a merry-go-round in it, and they played it over and over. So the fact that you're doing all of these things with these families is just wonderful. I wish I'd known you 30 years ago. That would have been very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Let me ask you a question. Let's let's put the children to the side for just a a a quick moment and and not to ever discount the entirety of the family. How do you approach though couples when there's a realization, maybe maybe not initially, that their partner is on the spectrum and that it's getting harder and harder. And I mean I often find that it's not always the case, but there is a percentage of people who come into my office where the woman makes this discovery because they've now had one or two children and they say, Oh, okay, this is not hard, not hard math in terms of the genetics, and and realizing their their partner who they described as cute and quirky, and now they realize. Okay, we've got a much bigger piece here. And it doesn't. It it's not the marriage is not progressing well. All right. They come to you and they say, Okay, well, we uh we're gonna get a divorce. How do we do this? It's interesting. The other the other day we met with a woman who uh herself is on the spectrum and she created a workbook somewhat of neurodivergent strategies for persons who are living in a neurotypical world. And I'm imagining if people were to come to you, here we have a either two neurodivergent individuals or one on the spectrum, one not, and they're saying, What are the rules that we can uh operationalize around in the neurotypical world? However, this is who we are, and we're getting a divorce. And they may or may not have children. Yes, right. I'm let's let's even say they don't have children. Let's let's make it relatively speaking simpler.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah. Right. So yeah, that's a great question because I mean there's neurotypical couples who have a hard time getting through divorce. So definitely there's a lot more challenges when you have one or more um who are who you know have some differences in how they approach things. And so, you know, I would say, you know, look at your yourself and your spouse. Say it's a spouse that maybe is um you know um neurodiverse. And so even before you had that information, or maybe you had it at the beginning, um, this is who you chose as a partner. They had to have you know strong qualities. There's things that you liked about them, and maybe things that are quirky that maybe are harder maybe to manage now. And so we want to approach things no matter who the people are and what their challenges may be, in a respectful way, at the level that they can process and handle what's what's coming at them because um there may be people with you know ADHD or different type of things where it's just it's too much, they can't handle too much at one time. And so I help to break things down into manageable chunks. So to try to take on the divorce all at one time is very difficult because there's so many pieces to it. It's kind of like that saying, you know, we you know how to eat an elephant, just one bite at a time. You can't approach the whole thing all at one time, all in one day. There's too much there. And so you just got to take one piece at a time. Um, and even those, like even the finances and the different things, I mean, those are separate, maybe multiple conversations. We can't decide all at once. But first, I would say have a vision for your divorce. What do you want your life to look like after? What do you want your relationship to be with this person after the divorce? And so that will help drive the decisions you make and how you make them. Because you want to um, there's a there's a uh framework called BIF B I F F, which stands it's a uh from the High Conflict Institute by Bill Eddy. There's a yeah, I wrote uh some books around this, which stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And so that's the way to communicate either with somebody who has a high conflict personality or with anybody in general. You know, how do you want to uh so we don't want to overwhelm somebody with too much, right? Too much either in text or in language. So that's the brief part. Um informative, we want to do things in a positive way, uh, you know, focus on the facts, not all the emotion, brand is emotion involved in divorce, but but it's hard to make decisions when you're focused on emotion and not the actual facts. So I help people go, but as they say, from emotion to the business side of divorce where we're actually looking at it. What is it that we're actually trying to decide? What are the things that are holding us up, looking at it that way? Um, we want to do friendly, we don't want to be yelling at each other, we don't want to um lay blame, right? We want to do it in a way that respects everybody so that everybody feels heard and feels like they're hopefully part of the process, that their their needs and interests are being uh addressed or at least heard and respected. Uh, and then firm, meaning having boundaries, right? If you're dealing with somebody who um, you know, maybe is difficult to deal with or uh has different personality disorders or whatever it might be. We want to um you know express, you know, like if you're getting divorced and the other person maybe doesn't want to, it may take them a while, kind of like with the authentic diagnosis, to come to that realization. You may be a different place in the in the grief journey or decision to make um for divorce to be the reality. So one person may have been thinking about it for a long time, another person may be brand new. So it maybe take them a while to get to that to that level where they can have those discussions, right? So you want to give people their time and space as well. But in terms of being firm, you know, we still want to um you know explain what it is we want and why we want it, and not you know, try to be swayed by you know different maybe unhealthy emotions.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Right. So it sounds like you're an important adjunct to psychotherapeutic and and the legal aspect. Right. So I think you are really uh, you know, a I think um well a critical element to assist in the mediation process to get this thing moving in a healthy fashion, both in terms of getting both parties to recognize where the end of the marriage is, and then how to work together so that there is a positive resolution. And then, of course, if you add the elements of kids, we bring them off of that box and put them back in, how to understand that this is a forever process with children, especially children with special needs, and how to continue that continuity. That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

That is it is very interesting to think of, you know. I think frequently we'll talk about okay, there's a lawyer involved, and I'm seeing uh the mother, and Essie's seeing the father, and then there's a lawyer, and each parent has a lawyer. But to have you come in as a mediator, all the things that you have gotten certified as that's really excellent. That really makes a difference or can make a difference because you don't have a side in the fight, you are uh neutral. How can we do this? I'm kind of parroting your words back. I want people to hear it this way. Um, how do we do this the best way? How do we take put friendliness in, even in brief spurts, and how do we take some of that emotion out so that you can work with Anne and you can work with Estee and you have your lawyers, but before you get too deep in with your lawyers, I may be able to save you some money.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah. Exactly, because like you said, this could cycle and get out of control and result in huge legal expenses and time and stress and effort. And so, yeah, I'm not I'm not a legal professional, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a mental health professional, but like you said, I'm kind of an in-between trying to put the pieces together.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

I think and not only in in terms of the f the financial cost of divorce, but the emotional cost to be able to minimize that as well. This has been an outstanding conversation, and again, something that people don't necessarily want to talk about or even are aware of, you know, that we want to imagine when people walk down the aisles that that there is only wonderful things going to happen and you know the harps will keep playing, you know, 50 years down the line. And that's a possibility, but particularly in the neurodivergent world, it's uh at a far greater risk. And I think that having you as part of this important team is critical to not to uh discount how whatever the process is of both being married and and and uh uh the end of marriage, but how to make it how to have how to be thoughtful throughout the entire process.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

It's well that's well done. I am very impressed, and like I said earlier, it's very difficult for therapists to find people who know who are as well educated because they've chosen to be as you are.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

So that's really you know, it's a wonderful thing to hear.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

So thank you for telling us a bit of your of your your uh personal story in the context of it being uh you know the prompt for your professional career, and most importantly for joining us tonight. Absolutely. So this is Dr. SD Hess.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

And I'm Dr. Ann Kirsch, and this is the end of this part. But if you have seen something on our program that has touched you, then you want and you want more information, get in touch with us. There's we're on every site that you can find a podcast in social media. Yeah, let us know what your questions are, we will answer the questions and um we'll send them along to Marianne Hughes, and who is a certified divorce coach for the neurodiverse population.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

In addition, if you yourself would like to see yourself, as Marianne did, reach out to us through Facebook to be a guest on On and Off the Podcast, uh Spectrum, on Off the Spectrum Podcast, please don't hesitate to uh to also reach out. If you liked what you saw tonight, do follow us, do subscribe, and uh do have a a safe and wonderful evening. Marianne, thank you again for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Thank you all, and I appreciate the time and conversation and uh happy to help and happy to hear with all that you do as well to support both parents going through the process.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Appreciate that, please. Have a good night. Take care, have a good holiday, please. Bye-bye.