SPEAKER_05 0:31

Good evening, everyone. I'm Dr. ST Hess.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

And I'm Dr. Anne Kirsh.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

And we are doing something a little bit different today. We are operating from two different venues, but we are still having our wonderful podcast on and off the spectrum. And tonight's special guest is someone who really has touched our hearts by the book that he has written. It is Rambi Yasram Burnath, who is a Chabad rabbi in Montreal, Canada. And Rambi, thank you because I know it's quite a bit later on your end on the eastern side of the United States, of the coast, not necessarily the United States. And his book, his wonderful, wonderful book, is called The Forgiveness Experiment. And I'm gonna give a nutshell synopsis of it, but I'm gonna ask you to explain much, much more. I will tell you that Ann and I, before we just started the program this evening, somewhat joked with you, but not really. I personally have purchased multiple copies of your book to hand out to both uh clients and to friends because I think your book has so many important messages to teach, and I can't thank you enough for the wisdom that is so succinctly put together in your book. Um but in essence, and tell me if I capture this correctly, what would happen if you could forgive an entity, a person who has done you harm, whether that person is alive or has passed, whether it's God, whether it's yourself, how much more room would you have in your brain if you weren't renting that space out for free? And then what kind of things could you let go of, which we'll talk about towards the end of your book, which I think is marvelous in terms of these self-perceived um kind of like characterizations that of who you need to be in the world that you can let go of if you start this forgiveness experiment and basically be kind to yourself. Did I catch it even remotely right?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Incredible. Okay, I'm just honored to be here and honored to have this support from both of you. It's really special. This was never supposed to be a book, and so to see it land in the world in your hearts the way that it has, it just brings me so much, it's really nourishing, really.

SPEAKER_05 3:11

Well, I'm we're we are thrilled to have you here. But we have to I have to follow up with that statement. What did you mean this was never supposed to be a book?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Right. So you may notice, and you introduced me as rabbi, which is a title that I often use, but it's not the only title that I'm called. And I chose to not put rabbi on the cover of this book because this book was my own process, my own work. And I had been doing this work for a number of years, and at some point I started teaching it. And I saw how I saw how it landed for so many people, and I said, you know what? If if people can benefit from it, I will take this, all of my notes and kind of put them together and create a book that could, I hope. I mean, obviously it's a self-help book like any other, and somebody can read it and learn from it, or to use it as a course, use it as a journal, use it the way that I used it with the exercises, with the processing. There's even times I think I did something that I've never seen in a book before. I I ask people to pause at moments. I I don't like to spoon feed process. And so just to pause and ask the questions the way I asked them, and maybe sit with them for a week or two or three, the way that I did. I mean, that's my hope at least.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Could you go over some of the questions that that made you? I know it started with your own journey about a time when you were assaulted, I believe physically, and the process it took for you to come to terms and forgive uh that experience, uh, the individuals who were involved, and the kinds of questions you had to ask yourself.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah. I realized at some point that I was carrying a lot around. People would call me an old soul when I was young, and it bothered me. I I at first I said, Oh, that's nice. And then I realized maybe that's not. Maybe I should be a young soul because I'm young. Why should I be an old soul? And realized that I was very heavy. I was burdened by a lot of things and a lot of experiences and things that had happened to me. And it was this process of looking at them and being honest and rolling in the mud a little and allowing myself to live in a space that maybe I was running away from and asking and challenging and then letting go. And then creating creating lots of different processes in in the in the in the way. So, I mean, there were so many questions. I'm not sure which question you want me to start with, or maybe even I can start with an experiment that I did to answer that question.

SPEAKER_05 6:25

Sure.

unknown 6:26

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 6:26

That would be great. Let's start with the experiment.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yes. So one of the most profound experiments was a reframing experiment that I I never seen it. Maybe it exists somewhere. I so maybe perhaps you can tell me. Um I will say, I'll just give a caveat before I I explain this, is that when when a wound is fresh, we might not be ready to look at lessons. And that that's okay. There's a there's a stage where we just have to to feel the hurt and acknowledge it. But there then comes a point, maybe after the initial shock, after the grief, uh, where we have to face a choice. Do I live in this chapter forever? Or can I carry this painful event forward in a healthier way? Can I learn from it? Is there something here that is a gift that's been given to me that I can learn from? And it was hard because I don't want to let go of the story. And so realizing that changing the story doesn't mean pretending that it didn't happen, it means finding a place for that chapter in my life where I no longer want it to control the narrative. I want to take back the pen and allow myself to control the narrative. For example, maybe when I was younger, I didn't have the wisdom to understand and the time, I guess, to understand what that lesson was. But now, as I'm older, I'm the adult now, and I can decide whether I want to tell the story through the child. For example, a great grievance that you spoke about uh when I was uh when I was shot at when I was 15 years old. But I'm not 15 years old anymore. So I can allow the 15-year-old to control that narrative, or I can allow the adult 43-year-old to control that narrative. So this is not the experiment I did for that. That that was that was a very big one, and I can talk about that. I call it the letter that you'll never send. This experiment was one that I did for a lot of. It was the most common one that I did for grievances. I called it the multiple drafts method. So think of a story that you've been telling yourself about a hurt. I call that the first draft. So it could read something like, I'm just gonna play with this and narrate it out loud.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

I was doing well until name the person. This person came along and messed up everything. And because of such and such person, I lost this thing, and I will never be able to. And this is the narrative and the story that I've been telling. Now, you can write that down, and I I really do. I love the pen to paper. I mean, you can say it, by the way, just kind of talking it out, taking it out of thought, and putting it actually into speech is powerful. I think even more powerful is to actually write it down.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yes. And I encourage just kind of writing it down in its emotional rawness. That's just draft one. Just write the story down as you've been telling it for as many years as you've been telling it, and it could be many years. Likely that draft will be written by your painter. Then I invite you to ask a question. What would you change in this story to make it more empowering for the main character? You. And then write a second draft that could sound something like uh, yes, I was hurt when she did that. It set me back for a while, but it also forced me to and start looking for the silver lining, find a new path, learn to stand up for myself, seek better friendships. And in the end, I was able to grow. And I think this is a gentler telling, one that acknowledges resilience, and possibly that there is a silver lining, that there could be good that comes out of a very difficult situation. And also it could say that maybe that this was needed as a detour in my life, and it'll make sense later. Then there's a draft three, where I ask you to imagine yourself in ten years as the adult, and you look back with with the wisdom, with the hindsight, and maybe having seen more of the ripple effects, what would uh draft three sound like? Maybe it would sound something like in retrospect that painful episode was a turning point. Those were my triggers, but my triggers became my medicine.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

Yes. That's such a that's such a powerful piece because I'll reference it back to what I mentioned at the beginning of the tonight's uh podcast. For me, one of the most powerful chapters is the last chapter where you say by doing this process, you can change who you have thought you had to be, whether it is the person who is the perpetrator or the perpetual victim or the perpetual helper, and be more in charge of your life.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

That was probably the greatest breakthrough for me in the whole process. I actually added that chapter once the book was finished. It it was amazing. It was introduced to me by uh a good friend, uh a coach, Omar Pinto, and it just clicked. And he introduced the work of Dr. Stephen Cartman, who talks about the drama triangle. And Dr. Cartman in the drama triangle he says that the victim, the perpetrator, and the rescuer are part of a triangle, which means there's no victim that can exist without a perpetrator, and no perpetrator that can exist without a victim. And the rescuer is interesting because it may be the rescuer that exists or the rescuer that we're waiting for that never comes. But they're part of the same thing. I I used to think that the opposite of victim was perpetrator, like they were the opposites. But then I found out they're actually parallels.

unknown 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

And they could even be the same person. And then asking a question that comes out of Dr. Cartman's work, which is what would my life look like if I wasn't a victim? And I think this is such a powerful question in our society right now, because we're in a world where there's the victim Olympics. Who can get the gold medal? Who can be the biggest victim? Who could get the most sympathy from a world that is so loving and so kind? So we need somewhere to put our love and our kindness, and the easiest place to do it is in this poor victim. Oh, please, what can I do to help the less fortunate? So that we, in a world that is compassionate and loving, we have actually created the Victim Olympics. And so people want to get that gold medal because they get the most sympathy. Now, if I had to ask the question, and I myself, and there's a lot of reasons for it, we can talk about it. I'm here with two doctors, I think that you probably know much more than me about why people are going to victimize themselves. But what was fascinating to me was pulling myself out of it and ask a question. What is the opposite of victimhood? If it's not the perpetrator, what is it?

SPEAKER_03 16:11

So what did you come up with?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

So I came up with from the work of Cartman and the work of this really uh incredible author, David Emerald, the creator. They call it the creator. Because I'm a rabbi, put on my rabbi hat for a minute. I don't like creator, I like co-creator, that God gives us the ability to co-create our realities, our lives with God. That's what free choice is. I won't get philosophical on you tonight.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Yes, but I love that. I that's just how I speak a lot. So I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

So we're co-creators in our lives, and the opposite of victim is you can be a co-creator and you get to decide. You're the director, you get to decide what is the next step. And there's so much in front of us, so many options. The world is our I'll use a Jewish term, kosher term, be filterfish. The world is there. There's so many opportunities and abilities. So now here's the question: if the opposite of victim is the co-creator, what happens to my perpetrator? Because if there's no victim, there's no perpetrator. So what does my perpetrator turn into? My perpetrator turns into a challenger. They're there for me as the mirror so that I can see the potential. They're there as my medicine. And so those triggers they exist as a gift for me. And then, of course, the rescuer becomes the therapist.

SPEAKER_05 17:58

It's so interesting because it makes me think of a personal message that I learned early on as a student that sometimes the worst teachers were were ultimately our best teachers. Right. Because you learn too quickly what not to do.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

That's right. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_05 18:25

Yeah. And I am so enthralled by the message of empowerment that I think eludes a lot of people who, for all kinds of reasons, as you put it in, this sort of victim society, get stuck in this in this place. I will also tell you what struck with me was that there were lots of different categories of forgiveness that you could approach. Whether it was an entity, another person who, like the individual who shot at you when you were 15, someone who was no longer in alive. Uh God. Do you want to forgive God for whatever injuries that you imagine have been uh placed upon you? And then probably just as large, do you want to forgive yourself?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

That was the hardest chapter.

SPEAKER_05 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

That was the hardest work.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

That's the hardest work as a therapist. That's probably 90% of the work that I do with my clients is helping them to understand that they're not alone, but that the work they do can feel very, very lonely. I am there as a guide. I am listening. I hear what you say. This happened earlier today. I hear what you say. Now, what is the next step? Do you think back into the upset? Or do you find a way to stay still? Which I I love that. Just stay still and breathe and feel, and if the feelings become too big, do something else for a minute. And then just breathe. And because I've been meditating and praying for 30 years or some, I teach my my clients how to meditate because I believe that in that space of quiet we find our answers. And so reading your book and finding that what I've been doing by putting together a lot of different teachers in my life, you put together in a book. You've set it on the page. I so agree. As you're speaking, I'm taking notes because I I take notes, I take copious notes, because that's how my brain receives the messages. That's how I can tell people what I believe they're not seeing. And this is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:25

I I I have uh an additional question. You said to forgive yourself was the toughest chapter. Why? Why why do you believe that ultimately forgiving yourself is the greatest challenge?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Every time I look at myself, my nose gets in the way. It's it's hard to look inside. It's hard to to think of ourselves. It's it's easier to shift blame. Especially when it comes to people who have hurt us. I mean, they're really good markers for shifting blame, and the pain is unavoidable. But the suffering. I think about, and I I use this example in the book. Like you get up in the middle of the night and the lights are off, and you want to go to the bathroom, and you walk by and you stub your toe on the couch. It hurts. The pain is unavoidable. But then you say, Why does this always happen to me? That's the suffering. And that's optional.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

It's the blame shifting too. You yell at the couch.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

You're yelling at the couch. Why are you always here? Why I little I've done that when I the second time I broke my toe, my little toe, many years ago on the same door jam to the same bathroom, I had to stop. It was probably like the messages of hurt that that you speak about. I had to stop and and really say literally on the spot and say, in in the pain, why do I keep doing this? What is the message of this? Why, why? And I had to stick with that a long time before I could come up with any sort of a reason because it seems so irrational.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

That's hard and really messy. That's really messy. I have a blooper wheel of moments in my life that ambush me all the time. When I'm driving, three o'clock in the morning, like you know, the thoughtless comment that hurt a friend. I realize that maybe not everyone remembers everything, but I remember I somehow remember all of these different things. I remember the the boy in my class in fourth grade that borrowed 35 cents from me and never gave it back to me. I have a whole blooper wheel. And they're little minor things, but they've taken up a lot of space. And they build, they pile up.

SPEAKER_05 24:16

It's interesting how that's that file stayed in your brain. And I I I do wonder the perpetual purpose, because I I know far less perpetrators as much as I know many more victims. People who are unable, unwilling, not interested, not capable, or yet, or maybe have yet to try. I think it's a choice that they make. This is our work. Move out of this victim's place.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Can I lean into this and maybe push this a little forward?

SPEAKER_05 24:59

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

The the hardest realization for me in this process, well, the the the obvious realization for me in this process was that I've been hurt. And that a majority, or maybe all, of the adult world has also been hurt, that I'm not alone in this process. That almost every adult in the world has been hurt by somebody. But the hardest realization for me is that I've hurt others. Wow. That I used to think of myself as the perpetual victim, but I'm also a perpetrator.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Wait, I'm writing. Yes, we are. I am.

SPEAKER_05 25:51

You are a perpetrator consciously? Would you say?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Probably not.

SPEAKER_05 25:57

Maybe it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

We we we walk through the world. I I could have just not seen the person behind me and cut them off.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

I didn't, I didn't do it. I definitely didn't do it maliciously. I definitely don't walk around the world maliciously perpetrating. But it does happen because I don't live on an island alone. And maybe the old joke that if I did live in an island alone, I'd still have a synagogue I didn't go to.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yes, my grandfather said that to me. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

Yes. So by doing the work to at the very least start forgiving yourself, you create a whole new space to identify with.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah. And noticing.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

If I had somebody asked me what is the first step and the most important step, I would say just notice. Because once you start noticing, it doesn't stop. The ball rolls. And you just start noticing it everywhere. The victimhood, the perpetrators, the people who are telling the same story. I mean, how many people? You just sit somewhere and you're a therapist, and people are coming to you with your buddy. Let's say you're not a therapist, and people are just telling you their life's problems.

unknown 27:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

You're sitting on a plane, you're sitting on the train, and all of a sudden you're hearing everyone's life. Like the world is looking to release, to unload, and just noticing around us.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yes. Yes. The world is looking to release. And one of the things that I'm feeling right now is we're talking about something very, very powerful. This is very deep, but but we're laughing. There's a joyousness to life, to what you're saying with a smile, with with this laughter that you have, that sometimes I I don't feel. Sometimes I feel lately the pain, but I do feel like I want to laugh much more than I want to cry.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

That's why laughter is so powerful. I was sitting on the on the I I don't I'm not a rabbi of a big synagogue. Like I don't have this big pulpit. And so I was sitting on on uh on the dais. I read about in the book, uh subbing for uh a rabbi of a big synagogue here, and it was a bar mitzvah. And there was a 16-year-old young lady that was giving uh a speech at her brother's bar mitzvah, and I was right behind her because I was on a dais behind her, so all I could see was her back, and the entire time there was this sound coming from her mouth from her mouth as she was speaking, and I couldn't tell if she was laughing or crying. Because from behind her, it sounded the same. And I was just totally enthralled with this, and it kept on happening as she spoke for at least 10 or 15 minutes. The whole time, every word that came out of her mouth was like this kind of probably a giggly, but I couldn't tell from behind her whether she was laughing or crying, and I realized that they're both the same thing, they're just two different forms of a release that we so much need in this world.

SPEAKER_05 29:23

I I want to make a a slightly different mention because you know our podcast is geared for people who have heard, received a uh medical or uh psychiatric diagnosis or have have encountered a life-altering event possibly and are looking for guidance and so forth. Then this is certainly a very large piece of this kind of processing. But sometimes, for whatever reason, you are at, you know, what is put in front of you is suddenly a you know a life-altering experience. And I think it's natural to feel victimized, look at your wounds, and try to figure out what the heck is going up because suddenly up is down and down is up. And especially if with some of our uh more serious patients, more seriously impacted patients, where life continues to be hard on a daily basis, I think it's hard to step out and do the kind of processing work that you are describing because you're just into survival mode. You know.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Good point. Yes, we encounter that all the time. So, how do you suggest helping someone um come out of survival mode and into their life?

SPEAKER_00 30:57

My heart is full, it's very hard.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

It's hard to when you're treading water, it's hard to be able to see anything beyond that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

When you're just in survival, it's hard, and and that's why I think of so many people who lived before us who are in survival, and and and I am so grateful that somehow I was able to pull myself out. I did pull myself out though. Yes, I hear that while I was in the middle of treading water.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

I hear that.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

And I'm just processing it and trying to see if I if I have advice for it. It's painful. It's really painful. We only live one life. And the way we live it is our choice.

SPEAKER_05 32:14

You know, I'm gonna give a metaphor that has helped me physic in in real time than what I think what we do clinically. Um so I'm a very strong swimmer. And one day um I love the waters of Hawaii and I was swimming, and I just wasn't paying attention. And I got drifted out into a place where it was a little more dangerous because suddenly I wasn't really seeing land so clearly, and I realized I had a very big choice to make because I could go one direction or the other, and that could mean success or not, in terms of you know, my my physical safety. And all I wanted to do was stand on a rock for just a moment to get my bearings, to kind of decide where am I? And lo and behold, the heavens opened, and there was some kind of big rock wherever I was in this ocean, just enough for me to kind of go, huh. Okay. All right, where am I? Where's the sky? Where's the wind? Where uh uh here there, boom, I know where I need to go. I think that that's our job. That the the helpers have become the therapists as were. I think we provide the touchstone, I hope, the base, whether it is clergy, whether it is a good friend, whether it's a listening ear, whether I hope it's people who are watching and and and hearing this podcast, to have a place to stand for just a moment to get their bearings, and okay now what okay. Because I think that's what you need in the middle of a storm. You need to be able to stand or or have someone help you stand.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 34:12

And then go forward with this great map that you've written, Rabbi. You know.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah. I think I think to add to just for a second, uh, to what you're saying, Esty, is I find that I often will say to a patient, um, do you have anyone that helps hold you up? Is there with you during this? And they often say no. And then I say, I'm here. I'm here, and I am staying with you. I'm holding you. And the look on their face is at first shock because they're not used to somebody, a lot of people are not used to hearing someone say, I'm standing with you. And then a smile. I get it, okay, you're here. They may test the fact what whether I'm there or not, especially if they're a teenager. But they learn. They learn if they can trust, and trust is a big part of your book. Trusting yourself, trusting others, taking that quiet moment, which I'm a huge believer in, but trust.

SPEAKER_05 35:47

Rabbi, we could go on and on this wonderful book. I'm going to put out again, it's the forgiveness experiment. It is available through, is it Amazon? Or how do you if someone wants to purchase this this book, Rabbi? What would you suggest?

SPEAKER_02 36:07

I've purchased multiple copies on on Amazon. Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Available on Amazon on from better bookstores, uh it's around. I hope it's not. It's there's an auto, there's an audible and a Spotify audiobook that uh I actually read myself, which it's very, we generally don't um solicit products on our podcast, but when we have such a wonderful um tool as you're providing to help with resilience for our viewership, I want to be able, both Ann and I want to be able to promote this.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

So we want to thank you for the gift of your text and the greater gift of being on our show this evening.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Doctor.

SPEAKER_05 37:04

Yes, indeed. Indeed. I want to tell you that I am Dr. Estee Hess.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

And I'm Dr. Ann Kirsch.

SPEAKER_05 37:12

And this has been another episode of On and Off the Spectrum Podcast. If tonight's show touched your heart, please let us know. Please go ahead and uh and and follow us. We are located on many of the social media outlets. Uh certainly um, oh my goodness, you know them better than I did to reach out. But if you yourself think that you can add to this conversation and would like to be a guest on our show, please also do reach out. This is uh again on and off the spectrum podcast. We want to thank you. And again, Rabbi Sro Barnath, please, uh it's it's been such a pleasure and an honor to have you with us tonight.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

You too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 37:59

Thank you.