SPEAKER_03 0:31

Good morning and good evening, depending on what part of the world you're living in. This is Dr. Estee Hess. And this is Dr. Ann Kirsch. And we are coming to you from Los Angeles, California for us. It is approximately 1026 in the morning in LA. And it is about 8.26 in the evening in Israel, where we are once again interviewing on the podcast On and Off the Spectrum, Avram Zaren. And we were so taken, Avram, by your story, which we uh which we heard uh recently about the stress that you felt under the job that you were asked to do in terms of of um dealing with your uh dead companions um bodies after in the process of of the requirements of of being in a war zone and how thank God the the suicide attempt was not successful. By the way, again, let me reiterate as we did in our first podcast, the topic that we're talking about today has to do with suicide, in this case, recovery. But if the topic is alarming, please do reach out to mental health practitioners. And um, and I don't remember the number, I think it's 988.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

988. And if you have children in the room with you, um, we suggest very strongly that you send them to play in their in another room or make an exception and put on a video for them because this is not for little ears.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Okay. But we are going to be talking about the road to recovery with Avraham Zaren, and he shared with us some very wonderful, updated news that I'll let you share publicly as you tell this story, more so in regards to again your uh you know, your your own personal uh way of rebuilding your life after, thank God, an unsuccessful suicide.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

All right, so we leave off. You are now starting the recovery period.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

So talk to us. Thank you so much. Um so if I remember correctly, um the last episode, um, we were just finishing talking about um me in the hospital with my parents and my wife. Um and all those bad feelings I had, all those um thoughts, they did not disappear as I thought, and actually they became more powerful and more hard because it's like I had into it all the guilt and and the shame. I like literally I couldn't look to my wife and my parents' eyes, and all I wanted to do was just to go back to my family, to be with my kids, to be normal again, to start to find a new job, to do something. Just to I just didn't want all those crazy crazy thinking and thoughts in my head. And when the psychiatrist came to speak to me, I I showed her kind of a show that I showed her that I'm like, I'm okay, I won't do it again. I know I made a mistake and I want to rebuild myself. And by the end of the three weeks of the physical uh surgeries and recovery in the hospital, the psychiatrist who was in charge there, um she wrote her uh release note and she wrote that you can go back home, um, come maybe one day a week to visit the psychiatrist, and and that's it. And my wife, my amazing, amazing wife, who just I today look back and I see how smart she was because when I look on the way my parents treated um um whole of the situation, and I've gotta say it's it's normal the way of this uh reaction of my parents because all of us just want our life to be okay. We want everything to be in place and we want to feel calm, and when something moves your system, you just want to fix it. So my parents, normally as a human being, they like they heard the psychiatrist and they said, That's so good, you'll be with your kids, and and you're they're like they're supporting my show. And my wife just yes, and my wife just she was there the whole three weeks, but she did not try to find me a solution or try to make me get out of it. She was always asking me if I want her present or not, or what do I want to do? And and she didn't like said, you should do this, you should do that. Um, and when the psychiatrist wrote her release note, my wife came to me and said, Listen, I want you to be home healthy. I don't want you to be home um half away. And and if you're not going right now from this hospital to a psychiatrist's hospital, I I won't stay with you, and I will hope you wish you the best. And at that time, I was really I didn't understand what she was talking about or stuff, but I am so grateful that I listened to her because if I would not go to that place, I don't know if what what I was doing, maybe I would do that again or not. And I went to a Sikari hospital um in uh near part of Ishana. It's a place settlement here in Israel, and uh not someone in a city, sorry, but the the the sizes between the states and New Zealand is a bit a bit different. Um and I've been there for months, and the prop the problem was that no one knew why I did this or why all those things are happening to me because I didn't knew it, and no one made any connection because I haven't spoken with anyone about what I've been through. And the major point is that I did not remember the fact that I was taking care of preparing the body for buried. I would I it was like wiped out of my memory. And and for this whole month there, I've been trying to understand and I could not. And one of the workers there came and like she was like telling me, listen, there is a place called um uh in Hebrew it's a bait measan. I think that the right translation would be um uh balanced house. Yeah, the cut uh which the the official name of that is a replacement for it's a replace for for uh um uh uh psychiatrist hospital.

unknown 8:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

So it's a it's a rehabilitation site. Absolutely. We have a similar kind of situation.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Exactly. So basically basically the difference is in a psychiatry hospital, you in the department with around 50 to 60 people who are also getting treated with you. And in this house, you are not away from the city in the in uh in a closed place or stuff. You're like in a in a normal home with uh five to six rooms, with just ten people. It's like a really, really specific, they're treating you specifically for you and giving you your the attention you need. Um and and the the amazing thing there is that you have five treatments a week. Like every day you have a treatment with a psychiatrist and a psychologist, psychological psychologist.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yes, yes, yes. Um makes it hard to run away from your memories.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yes, and the thing was absolutely and the thing was that I've been there total for half a year, and in the in the first three months, I couldn't feel better. I was trying to understand why. I was trying, if I had in a in uh my body was starting to shake or I was starting to to experience a panic attack, I was just trying to do something. I was I was starting to go to a run, to play ping pong, to do something just to make myself busy to make this whole thing go away. And it did not help because I was suffering for like five to six hours every time. And after three months in there, which was half of the period of the time I was there, um, I went out for uh surgery to place uh bone in my up upper jar. Um and they took the bone from uh from the the up of my leg, and I was when the surgery ended, I was stuck to stuck on bed, I couldn't move. And all of a sudden, after five months of suffering, even more total seven months, but five months since I've been trying to I was committing suicide, five months after that happened, I'm I'm in that bed in the hospital, and all of a sudden, after five months of not remembering anything, his face just came in front of me again and again and again for like 40 minutes. I was stuck with the man that you that died in front of you. Yes, that I that I prepared. Yes, okay. And all of a sudden I couldn't do anything, I couldn't make myself busy and I started to scream and yell, and and my body was super shaking, and uh and the medical people there start to to panic, they didn't know what happened. And after 40 minutes, it's like you are really like having a big like you cry a lot about something, and then at the end you have like you're starting to like your body suffer like in English, it's called a cathartic experience, yeah. Exactly, yeah, and all of a sudden, for the first time, I realized the main thing that started to guide me through my whole process. That when I just stayed in the situation, it did I didn't try to change or to make those thoughts go away, all of a sudden it's like it's it's it's almost as the this those thoughts and those panic attacks received their wish, and they just wanted to be present. And after I gave them this present, they just went away. And then I was starting to think, what's gonna happen the next time when I'll be home? I could walk and do something. Yes, yes, and I started to speak to my therapist, and I started to think of myself did I choose this or not? Because I can blame everyone else with what happened to me or with what I did or with what I should have been doing as a part of my job, but it's also some kind of choice that I've made because anyone could have said no, I'm not doing this, but I chose to do it, so I understood that if I I'm I chose this, so I want to choose those thoughts that that are coming to me in out of nowhere, and all those my body shaking and all those weird things. I started to realize that I won't be able to make them disappear. And I understood that they are part of my life, and I want to learn more. How do I deal with them and how can I live with them? And all my trippin' started to be really successful, and for the pet for the last three months in that house, I started to feel more like hold. I can hold myself. So part of you were back in your body, you can your body became like aware. I I became back aware of my body. There, okay, and perfect.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

So just just to summarize to help our our viewership, what happened was your very smart and wonderful wife said, I know they're releasing you, but I can tell as your partner, you're not ready, and they have what would be comparable to kind of a sober living experience in terms of the states, where you had uh five days a week psychotherapy, and then after this situation where because of the injury that was self-inflicted, you needed to replace a bone in your jaw, which immobilized you because it came from your from your leg, and it forced you to actually face the expression in English again, face your demons, right? Absolutely, and face the uh this soldier who you were supposed to sort of put back together to be able to be identified from uh his family, and which caused you so much stress that has led to this this episode. And suddenly you have this cathartic awareness of the your your memory of the experience, who you are, and absolutely and and it's it's connected to the ready to face the world.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yes, absolutely, and it's connected to what I said before that I realized I need to choose and I need to tell myself about all the things I've been in the past and all the things I want to be in the future, just to make myself aware of the fact that it's my choices who brought me to the place I am today, and it's my choices who will who will bring me up to the place I will be. And I could have chosen in that situation to try to make those images of his face go away, but I because I realized at that time that I those things, those thoughts, those those panic attacks, just asking me for a present, just to be with them and to understand that they're with me. And if I can tell myself, it's a process, it's not a split of a second decision, but it's a process of telling myself over and over again that it's here and I won't make it disappear. But because of that, today it's not much in my life. I have it two or three times a week. I don't know when or if a big uh crush noise pumps me up, and I'm like explain, please, for our audience what you mean by it.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

I have it.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Okay, so thank you for making it clear. Um, in the official definition, it's called PTSD combat. And it those things in in the physical way, which is also physical but also mental way. Like the physical parts are sometimes I could wake up in the middle of the night out of nowhere, like nothing's happening, and I'm waking up, shh, my body is shaking, I'm cold sweat of my whole body, and my breath starts to not be in the right way, and harding to like hold my breath, and and and the in the mental part is like it's it's mostly sometimes like straight images come in my face. Yes. Images from my uh committing suicide, images from me taking um preparing his body for burial and and then and identification. And a lot of times it's like uh just feeling of of panic, like something bad is coming. I don't know, I I I need to do something. Um just just like you're feeling afraid if a if uh if a big lion or a big animal come towards you, it's the same feeling in your body. Your adrenaline starts to run fast, and uh and you you just feel like you you you can't stay in the same place. And I when I understood at the beginning, in in the first five months uh from the the part of me committing suicide, I and I every time one of those things came, I was trying to make it disappear. I was trying to make myself busy with something else to do something, and when I realized that it's there and I'm not going to make it disappear, and it's there probably for my whole life. It's a hard thing to hear if someone is dealing with those kind of things. For me in the beginning, it was really hard to understand that it's with me, but when I succeeded in the process of my treatment to speak about it more and to realize it that it's here, and I want to decide to choose to be with it. Yeah, that's the part that's the part when I started to see the good things I have because before that the good things weren't exist at all for me in my mind, because they were exist, my kids, my wife, my amazing friends, but I couldn't see them not until I I really got into the dark, darkest places in in me.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

So by accepting that PTESD is gonna be part of your life forever, but it is not something to run away from, it's something to accept and something to work through, hopefully with the aid of a mental health practitioner, and accept that that is part of you, and to accept the whole of you that you could go forward successfully again with your life. That's such a profound message, Avram, because I think that there is a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

The amazing thing, yeah, please is that I because I started this process, I I got a big gift around the end of this house I've been in, it's there is the wounded soldiers organization, if you know about it. You know, you heard that name. So it's it's it's the organization when charged uh by um by by government budget to take care of all the soldiers who got injured in the army. Yeah. And they came, one of the mental, like the one of the psychologists of of this uh organization came to the house I've been in, and they were looking for if there's someone in there who are related to the army or stuff, and if they want to come to the things, they're doing a lot of um of um activities and and stuff to help the wounded soldiers get back to life. Oh boy, he came, he came and he told me listen, we're starting next month um um a series series of of 12 meetings of learning photography and uh a psychologist during all the all the meetings to do like a therapy group through photography. And he told me, listen, I don't know if if you like it or not. I I had nothing to do with photography back at the time. And he told me, listen, come and try it. And if you don't like it, you can stop in the middle, whatever you like. And I was like, okay, I'll try it.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

And saying yes at that moment, saying yes. That changed your life. Yes? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Absolutely. And you you'll hear right now why. Because when I started those classes of photography, I just realized how much the all of the basics of photography are talking about how the world works. And it's really related to the to my to all those things I realized. Because when you learn about photography, it works just as our eyes. And in the camera, you can you can decide if you want the the hole to be big and a lot of light will come in, or you want it to be small and maybe not non-light will come in. And in order to in order to create a right image, I'm saying right, and I'm not saying beautiful, because beautiful, any person can decide what's beautiful. But to create a right image, you have to balance, it's it's it's uh it's uh it's a description called white balance, white balance. And in photography, it's called white balance. You you have to make the white be white. And in order to do that, you have to make balance between the darkness and the light in in the picture. And uh when I started to realize that, and you learn more about photography and how to how to how to uh how to look like the main thing we've been learning is how to see light. Because the main thing is light comes from the main source, which in our world is the sun, but if you are filming in the studio, it's the flash and it's coming from the main light, and you can only see uh the things in front of you only because the light touches them. If the if the sun, if the light of the sun would not touch the stars, for us, the stars will not be existed. So, in order for us, in order for something in our life to be uh physical so we can know it's there, the light has to touch those objects and to come back towards us. And the fact is that if you are not giving the darkness in the picture, if you're not giving it his spots and the places he needs to be, you won't get uh a uh perfect image. And I saw it's like it's it's life, it's how life works out, it's my process. And when I finished that course, I decided I went to the manager. It's like it's a professional school of photography who came to this organization to do this smoke course, and uh I came practically and inquired to the manager and tell them, listen, I'm coming to your school to a full year. I finished that year two years ago. Uh not two years, sorry. I finished that year of studying uh eight months ago, and I started the next year, the second year of studying, and I'm finishing that second year on this coming October. And I've got yesterday the amazing news after a lot of works I've been doing, project of filmings of a lot of films related to trauma. And I I got uh I send up uh um uh how you say it in English when you when there is a gallery you send up to people to come an announcement like your you're announcing and and and uh exactly. I send out my projects and I send up my projects and my story, and yesterday I got the message that I received got received to the biggest art gallery festival in Israel of photography. Bravo, and it's happening in this coming November.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

So for me, that's the biggest success of the We are so proud of you, but what a profound message because to heal you had to acknowledge and let both the dark in so that truly the light could shine. Absolutely, and what a wonderful metaphor. Yeah, what's the right thing?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

The biggest success is not the the the biggest success is not the award being in the show. You are the biggest success. Because even though there were many times you could have given up, you did not give up, and that's the message for all of our viewers, all of our listeners. There's light out there. You have to struggle sometimes to see the light, and I to feel the warmth, and when you do, you are rewarded sometimes with a re with an award and sometimes with the warmth of the sun.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Absolutely. And I think what you said, which I think is so profound for the majority of our of our viewership, it is not about running away from your problems. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that the problems are always going to be with you in some fashion. Try to get the help that you need so that you can tolerate that. Because by tolerating and having that area of your life that has darkness, as we as the metaphor is is and and and the reality has shown itself for you, and it's we're thrilled the light will shine.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

This is this has been, I'm going to interrupt only because we only just have a couple of moments, but I have to say this has been one of the most profound podcasts. I think, Ann, you're gonna agree with me that we have really ever had the privilege of being a part of. We cannot thank you enough, both for the candor of talking about the challenges associated with the actual suicide attempt, thank God you know was unsuccessful, and then to be able to come back again and share with us this amazing insight and um of your recovery.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Absolutely. Yeah, I have one last advice related to what you just said.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Please, yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

So back to what you just said, to uh get into your to to understand that the the the struggle part in your life needs to be uh in and you have to struggle and to be with it. I realized that without my wife beside me telling me uh go take care of yourself, take a treatment, I'll be there for you. And she was amazing. She was alone for a full year taking care of two kids during the third pregnancy of our of our little uh daughter, and she was just telling me all the time, listen, you need to come back home healthy. Yes, and I'm here for you. And I just want to say to all the viewers, surround yourself with friends who love you and will and you know who will take care of you and you will take care of them. Because there was one sentence I I saw somewhere, and the sentence says, Friends are like rainbows, always there during a storm to cheer you up. So wonderful. So um surround yourself with people who loved you and want to help you because it's really hard to go through darkness places without someone to support you.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Absolutely. Oh yes, absolutely. I have to tell you, that is the perfect period to this kind of sentence, and we are so again grateful for your courage and your wisdom to join us today. And I want to share that this is Dr. Estee Hess. And I am Dr. Ann Kirsch. And we are concluding this wonderful episode of On and Off the Spectrum Podcast. If you enjoyed today's uh viewer experience, then please follow us, subscribe, tell your friends. We're located on all the social media platforms, and including um certainly Instagram and uh my goodness, uh YouTube music and uh and spot.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Everything you can think of. And there's also when you go on to our um platform, you scroll down past our pictures, and you will see that there is a way to get to every every platform, every link with just a click.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

And although also our past episodes. Finally, if you yourself feel that you can add to the story, and Avram, thank you for adding to ours. We want to encourage you to come on and contact us and be a guest on On and Off the Pod On Off the Spectrum Podcast. Thank you again, and we wish you all good.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

I would like FC, if possible, to just suggest something else. One one last thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

I have an amazing lecture on my story. Okay, and I have a wish, I hope it will become true, to bring my lecture to many people as possible. So, because I think when people hear about those conclusions, they tell their friends, and then it becomes to more and more people. Right. And I wish to bring my lecture to at least three other countries besides Israel. And if someone is hearing this and wants to bring me to the lecture, I would love to do that. All right. I think we can uh put my connections somewhere in this video or not.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Absolutely. We we will make the point. So we're gonna add that if you are we have we have viewership from around the world, and if you're seeing this and feel that that Avram story particularly and specifically touches your heart, please reach out to us and we will be more than happy to share the contact. And again, this is on and off the spectrum podcast. It has been an enormous, enormous pleasure, and what a gift to have you back. Thank you so much to see how well you are doing tonight.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Okay, good night. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Good night.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Bye bye, good night.