SPEAKER_01 0:29

So good morning to all of our viewership in this part of the hemisphere, and good evening to our special guest. I'm Dr. S. D. Hess. And I'm Dr. Anne Kirsch. And we are on and off the spectrum podcast. And the reason why I started to uh you know describe good morning and good evening simultaneously, Anne, is because our special guest is Avraham Zaren. And Avraham is in Israel. Uh what city?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Um it's not a city, it's a settlement uh right near the Jordan Valley named Muskiot.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Muskiot and by the Jordan Valley. Thank you so much. And um, before we actually start our interview today, because it's a very, very specific and thoughtful interview, but the topic may trigger some of our viewership. So it is to be aware that today's topic is going to be suicide and ultimately suicide prevention. For anyone who is triggered, there is a national hotline in the United States. That number is 988. We're going to remind our viewership of that number again at the end of the podcast. It is for both suicide and other mental health concerns. It is free, it is 24-7, 365 days a year. And so please don't hesitate. If anything that we have spoken about today is uncomfortable or triggering, please know that there are people out there who will continue to help.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

And if you know anyone, the listeners, if you know anyone who is struggling with any kind of mental health problem, issue, um, or suicidality, you can give them this number. And they can call from wherever they are.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Okay. So without further ado, Avraham Zaren is a dear friend uh and uh a former soldier in the Israeli Defense Force. Avram, your story, I think, is going to be familiar with not only those in Israel's uh defense, but also for soldiers worldwide when they are encountering trauma in the in the context of war and suffer severe PTSD that uh in your case led to actions that thank God were not successful. But we're gonna let you tell the story to our audience and um thank you again for joining us. Yes, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Thank you so much for letting me share my story with um a lot of more people because my main goal of sharing my story, and I have also a lecture, a build lecture, professional one sharing my story. Um so my goal is to actually reach as many people as I can, because when people ask me, who is your lecture supposed to get to? And I say, not to the people who suffer and deal with mental health issues, but specifically to the families and the people around. Because in my story, I understood, I understand, like after I got recovered and stuff, I understood something really important that my wife, I have a wife and three kids, by the way. Um so my wife had to deal with uh full year alone during pregnancy and first degrade of uh special education. And if she wouldn't got the help, like she really understood, in order for me to support my husband, I need to get the help I need to be strong in the situation. So with no further uh with no further talk, um my story begins um two months after um 7th of October war started. Um my job was uh major sergeant in the religious unit in the army. Every uh every um every like unit of the army has uh in it like the base, which has the people, the professional people who are in charge, the car, in charge the food, in charge um of um the managing of the whole unit, and and a lot of profession jobs. And one of the one of the the profession is the religious part to take care of the religious soldiers, um to make sure they have everything they need, that the food is kosher, um, that the baked knesset is having all the equipment it has to be. And the big knesset is the synagogue.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

The synagogue, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

But the synagogue has uh the equipment that needs to be in it, um, and that uh there is like really specific orders for religious soldiers. They need rights to like they have rights about divening, um cultural food, and all those stuff. So to propose so that's the main work during the day and and and the job I was taking part in. Um and another part of the job is uh to well, first of all, before I continue speaking, um I will tell this in order so the the people who listen can understand. Maybe during my speech, I will maybe stop to breathe a bit or to like take things in. Um so forgive me about this from like from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

For you and for anyone who's watching and listening to taking care of our health, our mental health, and being aware of what triggers us is so important. So I'm so glad you said that out loud.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Thank you. You're welcome. So I'll continue. Um, so just as I said, another part of the job, which is not always happening, but we do um training about it and we practice how to do it. And the thing is um preparing uh bodies for buried and identifying them. Um by the by the Jewish halacha, um most most of most of the most of the religious um unit orders in the army are coming from the Jewish um halacha. Jewish law, okay. Jewish law, exactly. Um and there's a lot of in in the Jewish, like before you bury someone, you have to bring someone from first connection, like a mom, brother, or something, to identify him. Two people, like just like a chupa, when you're getting married, and you have to get two people to identify that this thing is happening. So the same thing before you bury someone, so I'm gonna get two people.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

So just like you do in a Jewish wedding under the canopy, you have to have two witnesses, you have now two witnesses at the time of death to identify the body.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

So in the army, the family are not there. So you the order says in the army that you in the field you have to prepare him and to bring two of his friends from his unit to identify him. So two months after uh the 7th of October War started, um I was like in my in my uh in my base, thank God, I was really professional. Like I got three um three um um like professional, like you get um when you when you do better than people and you get like uh I don't know how to say in English, I'm sorry. My English is a bit um certificate. I guess we're gonna be able to do that. You get like not a degree, but but you get like there is a ceremony the higher command is giving you like specialty for your work.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

You were acknowledged certified to do this.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

So I I had a few of those and I was really professional in my job, and um before I was in the unit, the equipment of taking care of bodies was really not quite as needed. And when I went in the in the job, I really had training and and prepared everything as needed. So now I'll continue to the beginning of my story. Um two months after uh 7 October War started, um they recruited reserve soldiers to every unit. And one of the reserve soldiers that enjoyed us probably had older PTSD from other wars because he was like really little like 30, 40 years old, and no one knew about it, but he um shot himself in the head with his rifle on automatic. Oh I mean, in the in the in the rifle, you have uh uh one shot or uh automatically with shoots. Like so he shot himself in the head, killed himself. Um and I immediately heard about it and went to bring my equipment called the people who need to come, and the job took us a few hours um to prepare his face so his two friends can come identify him. Like let's say if the case was different and someone injured in the other part of the body, so it's not a real issue because you just cover him, you show the face, and that's it. But in this specification, it was really intense. Um and the thing is we we did training about those things, but we I've never experienced it before. Um and as we finished a few hours later, I was like six, seven in the morning. And when we finished, I was like really doing. I like my my my mode of working was always to be in a way of doing things, not to stop in the place and to be professional, to be to be the the best one in the unit. And as I finished it, I didn't want to think about it, didn't want to speak about it anymore. I just told myself, go do your job over and over, don't stop. Just right make yourself make this thing go away and don't get busy with it.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

So that was your defense mechanism again, that's how you yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

I didn't I didn't heard what you said.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

She said that was your defense mechanism. In other words, the body automatically goes into a protective place. Exactly. So, and so you were protecting your your psyche, your mind was already protecting just going to do this job, right? Finish it, do it very well. This is for the honor of the person who has just passed. Yeah, but you're not you're not allowing your body and your brain are not allowing you to feel right now. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Exactly. And more than that, when I finished it, I I just didn't want to think of the things I did and the things I saw, and I just wanted to continue the other works I had to do in the base and to just forget about it. Um, so it worked for me for a month and a half, and then I all of a sudden started to feel like stressed, and my body was starting to shake at night. I couldn't not I couldn't, and like by time I could not sleep more and more, and I had these seizures, like panic seizures, like I could not breathe, and and my my heartbeat was super high, and I was like, what's going on? Like, I have no idea why and where this thing came from. I like it's not who I am, like I'm the one who works, who does the job, not late in for work, doing everything. And the the the weird thing, like it's not weird. Today I'm understanding it's the way of the body to protect you, but I uh my mind, like the the situation of me taking care of this soldier wiped out of my brain. I like I I did not remember it, and I was like, all this period of time, I was trying to understand why those things are happening to me, and I had no explanation to myself, and the worst thing I fear from was me losing my job because I knew like the army has uh orders for the mental health professionals and psychologists, psychologists, and stuff in the army, they have orders like that. If someone comes and speaks to the one in charge in the unit and tell him, listen, I I'm thinking I'm I'm having bad issues, I don't know what's going on with me, I'm thinking maybe to kill myself or stuff. People in the army know that if you come and tell that to the professional mental health in charge in the base, he will send you out home, but you're like fired from your job, and the Minister of Defense now in charge of you, it's a full annoying bureaucracy to try to get your rights from the Ministry of Defense. Can you can you Avram?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

I'm just gonna ask you a question because our readership may not understand. Why is it so important for you as an Israeli citizen to stay in the army?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

That's a really important question. Because everyone in the country is serving. I mean, today people are a bit talking about the the Harani people who some serve, some doesn't serve. I'm not talking about I'm not talking about this. The most most like almost everyone in the country is serving. It's not like in America when you can choose to serve or not serve. And in in the in Israel, you finish high school, you go straight to the army, and it's the mode of everyone who wants to be the best from the best to get the special units, to to to get the right to defend your country. And each one has again.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

No, no, please continue. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah. So each one in his specific job wants to be the best in the best. And in the army, there is like a a way of the company of soldiers and things, not just the the system, the people in the army, the soldiers and stuff. If you come and say that you have mental health issues and you uh maybe you're weak, then you're not good enough. And what's happening to you, like you're you're not usual. Like, get on yourself, get get yourself together. And because of all that, I wasn't I didn't want to speak to anyone about it. Not my wife, not friends, not people in the army, not a commander, no, no one. Like I was thinking, if someone knows I'm dealing with those kinds of things, I'm losing my job, people think I'm crazy, and hell's hell knows what else. So I tried to do the work with this issues going on with me to try to be a better way to wake up in the morning, even though I was not sleeping at night, and every time I had uh a seizure or something, I was like doing like quiet and trying to do the work.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna wonder with you. There's a and there's a technical term, these feeling of seizures that you're talking about. I think psychologically we would call them panic attacks.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Okay, so panic attacks are a little bit different than seizure. That's not a it is it is absolutely a physiological response, but it's different than a seizure, which is um, you know, in other words, you won't even recognize necessarily that you're having a seizure, but here you recognized that you were having a panic attack.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

That's the point. I did not recognize it as a panic attack. Oh I was always thinking, what's going on with me? Like, why am I not sleeping? Why is my in it's not just like the panic attacks include in it depressed, the your whole body shakes sometimes. Um the body feels cold all of a sudden for a second, or cold, your heart pounds.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

So this whole thing's together, it's not like every time those whole things happen. Sometimes you get depressed, sometimes your body shakes. Like this whole thing, we can thank you for the for the correction. Like it's we can call it panic attacks.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Please, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

So every time I had one of those panic attacks, I I did not recognize it then as panic attack. I was like, I was like saying to myself, what's going on with me? Like, why is this happening to me? And and I don't know what this thing is because I I had no knowledge about mental health issues and stuff before.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Most people don't have any knowledge until it happens. And you never know when it will happen that first time.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

True, true. And I was trying to do my job, trying to do things, and I I kept it on for a month and a half. When every week it became worse and worse, and all of a sudden you can't hide it anymore. It became to a situation when I uh was it was Monday. I was I I got to the to my commander in 10 in the morning, like I need to be there by six. And all of a sudden they're in 10, and he's like coming to me and said, What's going on with you? Like, why are you late? And you look so white, like your your your skin is like, what's going on with you? And in that moment, I was like starting to have the panic attacks, so like I did not know it then, but I'm speaking of what I know today that happened to me, and I lost my normal way of thinking. I just could not think because this whole month and a half dealing with those things, I my my thoughts was starting to feel like I don't have any power for this anymore. I just want this whole pain to end. Just and and the you're for some reasons, your your mind just telling you, okay, go like find a way to kill yourself. But every time the this thought became in my mind, I was like, no, no way. Like my my wife, my kids, no way I'm doing it. And it's the same issue of making those things disappear. Like, go away. And so the commander comes and tells me that, and I get to a serious panic attack. I I'm running, passing people, not thinking about anything, running towards my private room in the base. I had a personal gun on me because of my job and the place I lived in the West Bank.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

And again, I'm sorry to interrupt you, just as our viewership should know that there are you have the capacity to have something that the army gives you in terms of military equipment, but then you also have the ability to have your own personal weapon. And in this case, you're living in an area where you felt you needed to own a gun too for protection. So this one's absolutely because of because of a registered gun to yourself rather than the army.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

And I'm sitting there in the room holding my personal gun in my hands, loading it, and all I want is just to disappear because I can't, my thing, my my mind is like telling I can't explain myself what's going on in me, and how the hell am I supposed to explain anyone else if I wanted to explain it? Because I didn't want to speak about it to anyone.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

And this those thoughts just made me wanted to have someone with me who understand me without me needing to explain anything. And all of a sudden I think about God as the only um The only not men, like the only uh um only something, I don't know what to say it in English.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Um maybe Uli entity. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

The only one who who actually entered this me. Like he I was thinking like he definitely understands what's what I'm going through, but he can't enter me. So I took my notebook, I I went to the last page, and I were I wrote um take care of my wife and kids and get me out of this.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

So you had a journal with you or just a paper?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

No, no, no, it was it was it was just a regular notebook from work.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Okay, all right. So would you think of this note as a farewell note?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Excuse me, but I can't understand like the word farewell.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Saying goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

No, no, okay, no, no, because I did in in some part of me I did not want to do what I was going to do, but some part of me just wanted to disappear. And my mind was out. I could not think, like my wife and kids were not in my mind there, not my job, not anything, just the one thought that I just want this pain to end.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

For people who are listening, Alvon, for people who are listening, what you're describing is exactly what we have heard as therapists. We've heard people say, you were not alone in the way that you thought, in the in the the deep, profound desire to get help. But because of being in the service, in the army, they weren't offering you help. So you felt alone with the fear of it.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

It's a bit, it's a bit, it's it's not exactly right because if let's say someone would recognize what I'm going through, someone would maybe tell me, listen, let's get you some help. Oh but I was hiding it so much, I was hiding it so much that no no one knew.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I I think you know, fear the fear is help exists, but there was an awareness of consequences that if you shared or someone discovered that your mind was going to this very deep and dark place, that they would give you the help that you needed. However, the consequence would be you would be thrown out of the army, and then you have all the shame associated with that consequence, not to mention the loss of pay and pension. So there's economic is there's economic consequences, and yet at this uh moment in time you are just experiencing intense pain, and you're saying, I just need to not feel this pain.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, and I'm pointing my gun below my uh um what's the name of this in English? Chin below my chin and I pull the trigger and uh after a few uh minutes of losing um losing um consciousness um all of a sudden I I wake up on my bed, everything is blood, and my face, my head is like pain is not a word to describe this thing because it you don't feel your your head. It's like my tongue was swamped in my mouth, everything here was wrapped out and so it was all swollen and you felt numb, you didn't feel anything because it was so painful. Yes, and uh all of a sudden, in this minute one second of realizing that I'm not dead, the only imagination went through my mind was my wife at my funeral. And all of a sudden, I was just thinking, what a mistake I've been doing, and I'm going to die, and I don't want it, I don't want my wife to say what what the hell like panic, panic, panic. I I I even today I can't explain how did this happen, but I jumped out of the bed, opened the door, I I could not speak because my tongue was like so swallow and and I screamed for help, was I I felt on I fell on the floor and they got the paramedics and they went me on the ambulance. And I remember like they're trying to keep me up not to lose conscious and and I I just everything I felt was like what the hell have I done and I'm going to die. I was going to have like panic, panic, panic, and it made me want to write something before I die. And I I I did my hand like this, and they pulled like a paper and a and a pen from my pocket, and uh I wrote, My wife and my kids, I made a mistake. I asked God that if I'm wrong that He won't take me away.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

And I just remember asked God to not take you away.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah. And I just remember putting me under under uh um anesthesia and stuff in the hospital, and then yes. Like the the the thing they make you sleep too for the surgery and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yes, it's called exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Um I just remember this, and then I wake up two days later with my dad near my bed, and my uh my my jaw is holed by iron things in my mouth, and I cannot open my mouth very much. Yeah. And I remember that I felt I felt so bad not just by the bad uh panic attacks I had, but also by the shame from my parents and my wife. And the feeling inside me was just wanting to disappear again. And when the psychiatrist of the hospital came, she came and had like uh I was riding uh uh a board because I could not speak. And she's asking me, like, how do you feel? Are you thinking of doing this again and stuff? And I went like even though my thought inside was the same thought before as before, I like just a second before I shot myself. Even though I thought all that, I told her, No, no way, I know I made a mistake, I'm not gonna do this again. Like, instant ex instant question, instant thought enters.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

I'm going to interrupt for just a moment because this is a critical point to mention to our viewership. It is not uncommon when someone is in such pain, whether it is from PTSD, a trauma event, something where they feel they're at the end of their days. What we now understand is that and this we understand from people who have not, thank God, like yourself, been successful in committing suicide, and they say almost instantly, I made a mistake. I made a mistake, I don't want to die, and I want to come back. I want to stop us here for a moment because our telecast is about a half an hour. This is clearly more than a half an hour story. What I'd like to do is invite you back to continue this because I think we're at this very critical point of how you realize that it was a mistake and that there was the need to come back and to um rework your life. Uh we're going to find out more of how you um you reunited with your wife and your children and your relationship with God at this point because you were part of a religious unit and see where you are today, and then also to see how your intent to help other soldiers and other individuals like yourself to not use this kind of experience. So, with your permission, we're going to call you back. And um, I want to share again that um for those of you who might have been triggered in this very powerful episode, there is a helpline, a national helpline in the United States, 988. And this is a number that you can call every single day of the year, every hour of the day, 24-7. It helps with both suicidal thoughts as well as uh any kind of mental health concerns. Avraham, you were saying that you couldn't tell anybody safely. This is a safe line that people can talk to. And so we want to encourage people who might be triggered or animated or know of someone, Anne, as you were suggesting, to please use this. So we are going to have you back. I'm Dr. Estee Hess.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

And I'm Dr. Ann Kirsch. And um bless you. This is an important story, and I I feel sorry that we have to stop right now, but we'll tell you what I think about it. With your willingness, will you come back?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

We will schedule it soon, and you absolutely, and I I'll tell you guys why, because that's that was just the the um the trailer, like the promo. Because the main things, the main things that went and happened with me for the next year was the most intense and um fighting life back. Okay, let's go. All my conclusions.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

I think that's gonna be our our our topic.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

That's absolutely and that's how we're gonna name this episode. Right. And you are a brave man who was hurt out of nowhere. This that's what panic attacks are. They like grab you out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

So we are both very glad that you are here to tell the story, and you have no idea how many people you just helped in the first episode.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Yes, there will be more. Thank you. Thank you again. I will reach out to you through our communication. And if also our viewership, if there are people who have these type of stories that they would like to share, or they know others who would like to share. And as Avram is saying, it is not only the act of courage to talk about the incident, but also the act of recovery. Because I think this is an important message that as we pray. That's the hardest part, is coming back and dealing with all of these feelings. So we thank you again. And uh in Hebrew we say Togus. Okay, thank you with all of our hearts, and uh we look forward to continuing this very important conversation. Thank you so much, Mary.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

We will.