SPEAKER_00 0:29

Good evening, everyone. I'm Dr. Estee Hess. I'm Dr. Anne Hirsch. And we're back with our wonderful podcast, on and off the spectrum podcast, with a phenomenal guest tonight. Yes, it's very exciting. We have, and I want to make sure. Is it Dr. Madeline or yes, okay, so it's Dr. Madeline Wolfe, and you have a remarkable story. Dr. Wolf is a psychotherapist, but she got there, I would say, the hard way. She overcame significant learning disabilities. And I know that our audience wants to hear this story because there are a lot of people who share their challenges or their children's challenges with a sense of hopelessness. What's ever to become of myself, our children, and so on. And I think that you present not as a false hope, but just the opposite. A very real hope. And we would like to hear how this unfolded for yourself and please, your story.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yes. Let us know.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

So I'm gonna start with a piece that I wrote in a um memoir book, and it's called The Scene I Dread. Nothing could be worse than being called on to read or answer a question in school or actually anywhere. As I write, I already feel the anxiety building. Will I know the answer? Will I sound stupid? Will I stutter? I am the self that had to survive in the midst of all this fear and anxiety. The self that had to be funny and charming so as not to be found out. Feeling stupid comes from not being able to read well or focus, a family thing that had been handed down for generations. Remembering now, I feel the shame that could make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The words in my head, please don't see me, please don't call on me. A lot has to go into surviving with learning disabilities and stuttering. A bad combination, I might add. So being good, being helpful, and being charming are the muscles I had to build, the muscles that became strong enough to endure the shame and fear. Survival is the goal. As I studied for my psychology exam, I discovered I did not know how to take a comprehensive test. I found an educational therapist, Sasha Bornstein, my angel. She thoroughly tested me and discovered all the glitches that stopped me from doing well in school. As we began our work together, we sat by side by side and she gave me all the sounds I did not get in first grade. We both cried as I focused on developing essential building blocks for room for reading. We went from there to reading short uh stories and her asking me what I read. So I went from first grade with Sasha to sitting for my exam in eight months. A miracle. I studied hard and often. I found myself retaining what I read for the first time in my life. I got documented for my learning issues and took the test untimed, in large print, and with a bathroom pass. A group I studied with me, I showed them. I passed, a few of them didn't, and they teased me when I was in the room. Well, um, when I was signing up to be in a different room. The scars still run deep at times. Courage is my mantra, and now I have the ability to back it up. So being funny and charming still have their place alongside ability and capability, all the muscles I need. So that's kind of uh story.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Remarkable, yeah. So touching, it it truly is touching. I have in my family people who stutter and have learning disabilities and know what they went through. So to hear you so I want to say easily, but I know it wasn't easy, but it sounds like you've conquered it now. I can I can do it, yeah. I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, I raise my hand.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

It's touching, so touching to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I I love this because you said something also, you found an angel. And when it comes to children who are disabled, there aren't enough angels to go around. And not enough people who know, there are a lot of people who want to minimize uh who want to mislabel and st and you know, stick a child outside the room because they're causing too much fuss, and then forget to bring that child back in and give the message that you don't belong, you aren't welcome because you are trouble. And you found someone who with a very willing student was able to take you through the bulk of your holes in your education and start filling in the gaps.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Yeah, and I was an Yeah, go ahead. No, I was gonna say, and I was an an adult, but I knew if I didn't do this, I wasn't gonna be able to be a therapist. So that was it.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yeah, yeah, and that's exactly what I was gonna refer to. It um in eight months, when so many people study for these exams um for much longer than eight months, it is astonishing that and that you did that. It is it is empowering to the people who are watching and listening to you talk, it's empowering, and that is something to be proud of.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

You know, I I want to think I want to say something else because so often the kids who come into either one of our offices have terrible self-esteem because they can be smart kids. And I think clearly you are a smart kid with a learning disability, and people equate learning disabilities with an inability to learn, and it is just different ways that the brain operates, and how do we figure it out? So, could you tell a little bit about your story as a child? And what was addressed or not, and how did you come up to say, I I want to be a psychotherapist?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Well, nothing was ever addressed. There were four of us, and um, school was very hard for all of us. Um, we didn't do well in school, but we were good kids in a local neighborhood school, and they kept passing us up up to the next grade. Every fall, my mom would get a call that my oldest brother was a daydreamer. Every fall. Um, of course, he couldn't focus, he couldn't he couldn't concentrate, he couldn't get in what was being given to him. My experience was similar, but I didn't think of it um that way until now. Uh um I stuttered, and that was also very hard because the anxiety of not feeling smart and stuttering could actually throw you over on the ground. It was there was so much anxiety. I remember when the day I got my SAT scores that they were so bad, I took them in the guest bathroom, tore them up, and put them down the toilet, and never mentioned them to my parents. We it wasn't in the day where you got a tutor or a class to get you ready for the SATs. So tests were my nemesis. They just it was so hard. Um so I felt shame and embarrassment and always found ways to cover it up. And clever, I was clever and witty and shaking inside. When I got to college, I sat in the front row and had many cents and had many sessions with every teacher so they could know me and understand that this was not easy for me. Not that there was a learning problem, just that it wasn't easy. In my early therapy um 30s, I went back to become a therapist. I took only two or three courses at a time. I had children that needed me, and I had to do it on my own time schedule. So I found the school that would allow me to do that. I found the educational therapist and worked really oh, she said to me the first time I met her after she tested me, she said, Madeline, how did you get out of college? She said, No, don't tell me. I know how you got out. You worked harder than anyone and only got C's. And she was right. I worked, I worked really hard. Um she took it, she took it in and went step by step as I learned all the sounds I never got. Um wait a minute, I want to forget to say something. Um, I read those children's books out loud.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Can I can I ask you something? Because I think you said something about your brother, and I'll I'll tell you what resonates for me. So your brother had a problem with inattention, a dreamer. So today we might diagnose him with attention deficit, inattentive type. And that's not a you know, it's not a it's not a scarlet lever letter. It is something that can be remediated with sometimes medication, certainly with educational therapy, with psychotherapy. There's ways to work that issue, but um was and I'm and it's also genetic. And so I'm thinking if all four of you had some form of learning issues or uh maybe variations of ADHD, I'm guessing either one or both of your parents also.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

I'm gonna I'm gonna give you that one in a minute. Yeah. Um I took the licensing exam and I got to take it uh untimed and with big print. And as you know, the big big print relaxes your eye and you're not straining. And I also got the um coveted bathroom pass, which was important. And when I passed, the doorbell rang and it was the mailman. And I came down in my bathrobe and I said to him, He said, Here's your mail, Madeline. I said, Will you stand here while I open this? Because I knew what this was. And I opened it and I said, I passed, and he jumped for joy as if he'd known me forever. But he said, That is so terrific. So right away, the good father showed up.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Did he know what you passed?

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yeah, I said talked to him. My licensing exam. No, I said, stand with me while I open this envelope. It will tell me if I passed or failed my licensing exam to become a therapist. Wow. And he was at he actually felt chosen. He said, I'd be glad to. Oh so the good father showed up.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, that's something.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, he was a he was another little angel hanging out there. Yes. So um the giveaway of how I got here was my father walked into my home when I had when I was studying for my exam, and the dining room table was full of piles of books and pretests and post-tests and everything. And he looked at me and said, I don't know how you are doing this. The worst thing that you can give me is a book. And I was thinking, and here it is. He didn't do well in school. Oh nobody told him he never finished college because it was during the day where you went out and worked hard to start a family, and he that was not his thing. He listened to the news every day on the radio and never read about it.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

So he was an educated man, self-educated, as much as he could be, but the he could get away with it, so to speak, because the emphasis was let's work hard. And you know, there were those who were book smart and those who weren't, but didn't mean, you know, and so he he could make his way in the world.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

But what did you think when he said, I don't know how you're doing this. Did you answer him? Did you not answer? What did you think?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Well, when he said, The worst thing you can give me is a book, right? I um kind of collapsed in the chair and said to myself, So this is where this is from. Because my mother read all the time and she was quite brilliant. She raised kids, so she didn't have to go out there and prove anything. And she read a lot. Yeah. She was always, you know, or playing the piano.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

So it wasn't until that point that you realize where this oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Nobody ever talked about that.

unknown 14:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

You know, this wasn't, this was all underground. Nobody ever talked about it. So um so it made me understand that he had learning struggles and never ever talked about it because he was successful and he knew how to be charming, yeah, and he was smart in making the deal.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah. But he was still ashamed because it was.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Well, he was. He was. He never told, I don't think he told anybody. And he stuttered also.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Well, of course, it's genetic. Yes. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

So I know that he, if he were still alive and he read this memoir with this story in there, that he'd be shaking because he lived it also. He just didn't know what it was or what to do because of shame and go make money.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

It was a different time. And and yes, no one, certainly no one, or very few people I should say, knew how to help someone who was a father in a family. Um yeah, yeah. Were you proud of yourself?

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Ugh, beyond. I didn't even know when I looked in there, I didn't even know who it was.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

And so I came from the idea that I would not be successful. So it turns out I got a um bachelor's in sociology, I got a master's in education, I got, wait a minute, I got some more of these. I I went back to school and I got a degree in psychology, and I passed the exam. So I walk pretty tall these days.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

As you should.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

What made you decide not only to go to all these years of university study, but that you wanted to go into this helping profession?

SPEAKER_01 16:18

You know, I think I was always a therapist as a teenager with my friends, and and somehow I was a good listener. But I I don't I just knew that's where I belonged. My father said to me, I should become a teacher because that you can have that to fall back on, like his sister had her own pushkey, her own money. And I want you to be able to have that as well. So I bought, I I bought the ticket and went and got a master's. And knowingly that I really didn't want to do it, but it took me to come of age a bit to realize that I was gonna do it. And I was running a business with a friend of mine, and she said she wanted to go one way, and I said, So I'm gonna go back to school. And I went back to school. I had a husband and two kids, and I found a school that fit my needs time-wise, and when there was there's something special in our family, like a bar mitzvah or something, I took the month off so that I could dedicate it to that. And I was able to sign up again and continue.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Can I ask? And you don't have to answer if this is too personal, because of the genetic nature of learning disabilities and ADHD, do you mentioned a bar mitzvah, do you I imagine you have children? Do any of your children have they experienced anything genetically as you experienced? And did you do it different? Well as a parent.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

You know, my son, who's 52, is smarter than a whip. He's you know, he's the kid that went to school, didn't read the book, and got an A on the exam. He could pick it up by listening, he was very, very smart. My daughter, uh he was very capable. And he also stuttered. Yeah. Um, he played sports, which I think saved him a lot. Yeah. He played sports all the way through college, and I think that that was his his power for himself. And he was good. He was very good. It turns out he is now an English teacher and a basketball coach at a high school. He got coach of the year in his small group of coaches, and he also runs a class. He takes a group of children whose parents are immigrants and they were born here, the kids, but they know nothing about how to maneuver the culture. So he takes him from freshman to 12th grade, and he goes through how to take an exam. What about the SATs? When do you apply for that? Wow and that's his most famous thing to do, actually. And we're we're we're proud of him as a human being. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

You know, I thought it's my belief that every child in high school needs all of those classes, including how to handle a checkbook, how to deal with credit card, because I didn't have those issues, but I didn't know how to do those things until I went to college and I went into a bank and I said to the woman there, whoever looked like she was important, I said, I don't know how to have a checkbook or what to do with it. Can you help me? And she looked at me with a big smile on her face, which took me back, and she said, sit down for a second. I have to do something, I'll be right back. She came right back and she showed me everything I needed to know. And it was one of the first times in my life that I had asked for something and received an answer so quickly with with such care.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

See, there are angels everywhere, even in the bank.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

You just have to pay attention. Yeah. So you mentioned so your your son did not have the same learning issues, but he had the capacity to know how to support children who need extras extra support.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah.

unknown 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's and our daughter, um, she's also very bright. She had a little bit more it it it was a little harder for her in school, but not that hard. And when I would come in at night and say, Do you guys need any help? Let me take you to the library, what do you need? They would say, Get out of here. So they were self-sufficient about learning. And and it worked. And they're both um successful, married, and nice children that are good people. And yeah, but but it's a little bit harder for her, and she knew it.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Because he didn't work, he didn't work at all on it.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Right, sure. But but no, but here's the thing: you knew now to ask.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

And so what was not asked in your family, not for any malice, God forbid, but rather just it wasn't addressed. Now you could address it. Didn't seem the kids needed, but you were there if that was the issue. So again, what kind of of guidance would you advise parents who recognize that their children are different learners? Not that they're incapable, but they their brains work in certain ways, and they need some different ways of approaching language or mathematics. Or uh the ability to write their names. What would you say?

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Well, first of all, I'd be very I would be aware of it. And I might call the teacher. I think the earlier you can get some help with this, the better you have a chance to really take it in. So and and I I think just feeling very loved is very important. And so to find some pride in anything that they do. I mean something special that they are proud of.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

And um, find the way that they can shine. And and give them the the go to the classes, go to the museum, go to take them where they shine.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Even bake a cake. Even bake a cake.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Even bake a cake. Absolutely, because you need math for cakes, you need patience for cakes, and you need the ability to be empathically offering would you like a turn? I mean, there's all different things.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

And mommy has to be there to show how you bake a cake. Absolutely. And so many kids who have learning issues don't want help. They want to do it themselves. I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Parents?

SPEAKER_02 23:21

The children. Say that to the parent, but they can't do it themselves. And so it's finding a way for a mom to be able to offer that help. How would you suggest saying that, offering that, like making the kick?

SPEAKER_01 23:42

I I think that's a brilliant point. I think parents need to be educated and maybe take a class and these children particularly that need a different way to be handled.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

So uh that that's and to have a lot of patience because it's hard. It's hard to have patience when your kid isn't picking up on it so quickly. And and that's your expectation.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Sure is.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

And parents have some shame about it also.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I I wanna I wanna we only have a couple more minutes to share, but I want to to address two things that I think make it even more difficult for children to learn, particularly if there are learning issues. One is this this excessive use of technology that I think we are we are uh really raising children behind a wall. And then now the onset of AI. Ann and I are going to have a discussion in a couple of weeks about the way to use AI properly in the classroom. But I wonder if you have thoughts about the excessive amount of uh the technology, the the introduction of AI, and how would you guide families in terms of especially if there are children who might have learning differences?

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Well, at I I think at day one they don't look at screens. I mean, we gave screens to these kids really young. Really young, and that's part of their life, and that's what they know. And it's like I think when my son was maybe 15 or 14, he was into all those games on television. Remember all those games? And and and when we finally got him off of it, he'd be he'd be in a horrible mood because he was in a trance.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

And that's what happens. And so I think you need to parents need to get ready for this, because I I remember how proud we were that our grandchildren could recognize a cow on a little uh computer and the sound, and meanwhile, we were like beginning this, not knowing until now how dangerous it is for the brain.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Okay, and if and I do know from my own experience that if you start with your children when they're young enough and you say, and they say to you, I want to have a whatchamacallit game. And why do you want that? Because so-and-so has one and I like it. And I would say, that's great that your friend has that. We're not gonna have one in our house, but you may play it at your friend's house. And I got a little bit of pushback, but not nearly what I expected, and I and I think it's it was a combination of of what this one child in particular that I'm thinking of, but also um I gave an option. Oh, you can you can use that at your friend's house, we just won't have it here. And I didn't make it an argument, I didn't go into a big shrine issue about it. I just said that. And every once in a while, when one of my kids would say, you know, I saw a place down the block that rents these games, and I would say, Well, that's wonderful, and then that's all I would say, and then that I get followed, and it would be, well, but they rent them. That means that we can rent one and bring it home. And I would say, Yes, it does mean that, but we're not going to do that. Called called limits and boundaries, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Exactly what I was gonna say, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Limits and boundaries. And do you know it was rare that e any of my kids said, Well, why not? They picked up in my voice and just the way I sounded, that this wasn't happening, but great, great, that's great that you found that out. And I never had a problem with that. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm saying I got lucky that I didn't have a problem with that, but I think the more parents set boundaries and limits about it with a smile, with a, you know, not a mean, uh, you know, argumentative point of view. As a matter of fact, but uh, yeah, you know, that's great that you found that out. Uh, and then wait, yeah, and then see what they say. Um, you parents might find out that every kid is not going to argue about what they want. Yeah, they're just not, they're not all the same.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

And well, and you have to be able to bear their disappointment and tears and exhausting. There you are. And exhausting you, you know. Exactly. They'll follow you around until you're blue in the face. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Yes. They're very smart, a very smart therapist. This is exactly what we talk to.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

I love the fact that we're ending with acknowledging that you are a very smart therapist and you were a very devoted student to knowing that you could move yourself further in life. I think this has been an incredible message of positive hope, as well as how-to. And so, Dr. Wolf, thank you, Madeline. It's been really such an incredible pleasure and honor to have you with us tonight. And I think our readers will absolutely and our viewers will absolutely um take away such important messages from tonight's absolutely show.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

And what I hope is for the people who are watching and listening to what we've been talking about, that if they have questions, that they can contact us and we will send the questions on to you. Um we want to be uh a group, the three of us, yes, that works with the community, that helps people to understand what we're talking about and be able to put it into action as they go through their lives. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

It'd be my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

So this is I'm Dr. Este Hess. And I'm Dr. Ann Kirsch, and this has been another episode of On and Off the Spectrum Podcast. Yes. If indeed you saw something you liked that uh why, and I can't see why you wouldn't, you won't that please follow us, subscribe to the podcast, tell your friends, and if you think that you would be a good guest for this podcast, please do reach out. And again, just be safe, be well, and take the message of our wonderful guest, Dr. Madeline Wolf. Just persevere one step forward every day. Yes. All right. Absolutely. Thank you again, Madeline. Bye bye. Thank you, please. My pleasure. Good night, you good night. Bye bye.